In Discussion Class/Skill [Feedback Request] Skill Changes and Balancing

Although I think shortening SE duration is the most direct approach (1 min is just an example — lowering it to even 2 or 3 min would still have an effect), and it would likely only impact CWK/RG (NL) while leaving other content unaffected, the lost DPS could be compensated through buffing primary attack skills. The goal remains focused on "making a party SE player more valuable than an SE mule." As someone who was rejected by NL parties in Toad/TheBoss countless times, and then reduced to being an on-call SE mule (in Anego), I don't think nerfing SE mules is an unreasonable change at all.

I don't think limiting multi-client through restricting the number of mules is feasible — this is the result of the game having allowed multi-client for too long.

Regarding your reasoning against weakening SE — if SE were nerfed directly, yes, that kind of short-term disruption would occur. But the deeper cause behind that concern is that "SE mules have long been more cost-effective than bringing a live SE player, since mules don't need a share of the split" — the prevalence of SE mules has caused the number of actual SE players to plummet, which in turn has made it difficult to find SE for CWK.

That said, just as directly restricting multi-client would cause major short-term negative impact on the game, I also agree that directly nerfing SE would cause significant short-term disruption as well.

Therefore, I've thought of a more direct approach.

Add 1-hit-kill mechanics directly to the Raids where the GM wants to encourage cooperation, combined with a limited-revival compensation system:

For example, adding a very easily dodgeable 1-hit attack to Zak should effectively limit mules and multi-client play (Though duo-att would still be viable for skilled players.) — though the boss's stun pillars may need to be toned down to compensate (Or simply reduce the number of stun pillars and their falling speed, and change them to 1-hit-kill instead.).

For the revival mechanic, I don't have a great idea yet — perhaps something like: "upon death, the player is teleported to a separate map (but disconnecting or logging out sends you straight outside the Raid). This map has two portals — left to exit the Raid , right to return to the fight — but with a usage limit, so once 3 players have passed through the right portal, it can no longer be used."

Most importantly: "every approach inevitably comes with tradeoffs and environmental impacts — so if the only response to any proposal is to point out its flaws and reject it, reform will never move forward." My goal is simply to put forward as many approaches as possible. I also welcome hearing why each one might not be feasible — and in the end, the best solution is likely a hybrid that takes the strengths of several proposals combined.

 

so you are suggesting something like CPQ1 where dying inside sends you to another map which allows you to return to the actual fight again by entering into a portal.

I dont have an issue with that but I predict people are going to abuse that for service buyers like htp/zak helm/vl belts. The buyers are just going to die and enter that map for safe spot till the boss dies.

 

I dont know if this has been mentioned, but to increase axe users, I think we could make Brandish a Slash/Slash weapon instead of Slash/Stab.

Not only fits the animation, its a direct buff to Axe while not impacting sword users. This would make Axe a bit more viable.

For BW it could be similar, ACB and Blast doing slash dmg instead of having the 3:2 ratio. That will again, buff BWs without affecting sword users.

Just my 2 cents here as a warrior lover and to make Axes and BWs an actual weapon option.

 

What about adding a map timer? For example, after entering the revival map, the player must return to the raid within 30 seconds or be forcibly removed.

Although this still leaves room for saving res (deliberately dying at 9 minutes 30 seconds to enter the map, then dying again), with 1-hit-kill mechanics added, if a buyer uses up their revival, an attacker might not be able to return due to an accident.

Perhaps a simple dungeon like Zak isn't suitable for a revival map at all — or perhaps only 1 use should be allowed.

For Pally, wouldn't it be simpler to just buff the corresponding skills directly? Pally's skills are already split between Sword and BW.

I've always had the feeling that exclusive weapons (Axe/BW) were designed with the intent of being stronger than the shared weapon (Sword) — with the hierarchy being 2H Axe/BW > 2H Sword > 1H Axe/BW > 1H Sword

 

If prices go up, why wouldn't people just start using classes to solo content and make more money? Multiclient just makes things faster, but you can still do it solo. Instead of giser, people will apple now. I'd rather take the extra time to do the boss than have to go through the logistics of finding people or interacting with people I don't like.

 

I totally agree with that hierarchy. Axe and BW def has to be stronger than sword which can be used by both classes and already has a top tier weapon which is ST.
And you are right about buffing Paladin skills for BW, I think in terms of simplicity or easier programming your suggestion is much better. Thank you for the input!

Regarding Axe, ive heard that with the 75% mastery buff they are quite similar to sword. Maybe they could do the same thing for BW if it worked for axe heroes.

P.s. Im really interested in Phase 2 as there will be buffs to 1h users!

 

I think one of the best ways to tackle multi clienting in bosses is to just make the other classes worth playing actively

The greatest example is Mr. John Mule himself Bishop.

Is the class strong? Yea of course, its the only actual support class. Would I recommend someone to solo main it though? No.

In almost all of the early - midgame Bosses your job is easily filled by a Priest/fresh level 120 Bishop. 95% of your support kit is pre 4th job and all you get after is Res and Holy shield and while those skills are useful, they are easily manageable by a dual clienting player.

All you need is a pulse and a brain(optional) to play Bish because you literally do nothing outside of spamming Dispel/casting HS when boss is almost dead. (Maybe cast Holy shield but no level <150 Bishop has it for some reason). This gets very boring and I'm willing to bet not many people want to go through a solid chunk of their mid game doing nothing.

We're not going to reduce the number of Bishop mules by shortening HS buff time or shortening buff range, the dual clienter is just going to cast HS closer to when the boss dies/teleport to where the attackers are, the Bishop main however will suffer because they have to keep pressing HS 60 times an hour.

Archer has a similar but kinda opposite issue where almost every content they do has some downside. Cant push bosses, Cant tank anything cause no defensive skills, you get knocked back by a breeze cause no avoid, CWKPQ is an actual humiliation ritual, BM's got their one decent utility/mobbing skill hard nerfed etc. Making SE harder to mule isn't going to fix that.

 

You definitely could. That also make you focus on one character’s gear and demotes the “why spend 15b to get 1 att than duo attack and double my dmg” mentality.
NLs probably won’t do too much solo of difficult high hp contents without SE. sometimes it may not even be possible to solo without mules like HT and touching tail, or pinning of a boss like auf depending on what class you use. Mules doesnt just speed things up, it makes some runs actually possible to complete. Also Shad’s being so self competent and non reliant on others for anything, this will make them even more popular than any other class (just saying)

 

Good idea, but the 75% mastery and attack speed buff already makes Axe more viable than people think.

Making brandish Swing swing would make 2h Axe heros 13% stronger than 2h sword heros.

They would essentially be the third best Dps ahead of Shads.

Axe is already at a good place, 2h Axe being about 97% of 2h sword and 1h Axe beating claymore with the right gearing.

This sounds like a viable idea for only 2h BW, since Tim doesn't wanna to give them a speed buff. Swing only for 1h BW would make the sword users significantly outclassed like the swing only axe idea for heros.

 

I think this might negatively impact the way VIP services work, as simply wearing HP gear and having HB up won't let you survive a Zak service, especially when the map is really crowded and chaotic and hard to see when you're in the "safe" corner. I like the idea and working around multiclienting to make the problem less prevalent would be awesome. I hate seeing people require mules when they recruit for content, it makes it feel like finding a party for me will be even more nightmarish. It's a difficult design problem to work around, would love to see more suggestions and ideas.

Another suggestion could be to make the classes usually muled more necessary for actual gameplay -- like archers needing to control the mobs in between bouts of DPSing (so that the main DPSers can more freely do their thing). Right now we're in a weird space where the most of the "damage" we "contribute" is just SE, and therefore there's little incentive to actually play the game and not mule it. I'm sure it's the same for most classes, but I can't speak on them as I only play my BM.

 

Guh I want to be a supportive DPS so bad, but the lack of any and all utility and mobility with these constant nerfs is starting to make reality set in for me. I'm sure SE can be tweaked in some way to make it less muleable, as well as the rest of our kits being tweaked to make us more active and make all content less of a total slog. But I don't have the numbers in front of me or the tools or time to find out exactly how to do so.