In Discussion Class/Skill [Feedback Request] Skill Changes and Balancing

Why isn't bowmaster buff yet?? Such expensive class and yet deals one of the least damage in boss fights.

 

Unpopular opinion: what a class can do outside of bossing should not be brought up as a counterargument to them being "buffed" in the context of bossing.

I mean NLs are also the best golden mushroom/white lady hunters...

 

Can we please make Total Crash have same range as SE/SI? I don't know how it's been a year+ and Paladins still have to stop attacking to hug their ranged teammates to give Cr and lose DPS while doing (or Ranged attackers huddling close to Pally).

 

At least make it long ranged enough so that if I jump I can still cr teammates. Yep, if you have max jump, using CR near the peak of your jump will actually put you out of range of party members standing on the ground. It's that short.

 

Still waiting for NL buffs, like adding dex into TT formula or something, even if just a slight buff

 

Made a few edits to my op and just adding them here for discussions sake since that's a big old post and they could be missed, and these seem to be the most brought up skill/class topics: heroes and archers (but mostly BM)


On crusaders finishers:
"-or, instead of enrage, 10 orb finishers crash DR. this gives less pressure on enrage to be mandatory, and gives enrage other possibilities.
-Or only coma can crash DR/bypass weapon cancel with 10 orbs and consumes them, 250 mp, while panic can blind"

I really do hope the last bullet is considered. Brings a lot of fun and utilities to the class via already existing skills and refreshes them

Enrage
Another enrage suggestion among lots:
"-A very simple, compact suggestion: enrage just gives a temp flat increase to avoid/str, and a chance to ignore weapon cancel. Can be cancelled, has cd"

Another, and my current favorite enrage suggestion:
"At this point, I think that enrage being able to ignore DR (great hero buff) while also having a chance to crash DR during enrage (great untapped utility), is the best way to buff it at the moment since it seems unlikely the coma DR crash suggestion probably isn't going to be considered , no str/att buffs needed. Maybe some avoid bonuses/small chance to ignore basic statuses so it is not strictly a bossing skill, but this is a nice and simple buff that gives hero's solo or in parties a very helpful and unique ability" The slight 1v1 brandish buff is also worth adding, possibly 1-5% depending on enrages level. Ignores def up buff. Etc etc etc, so many ideas to consider

Guardian
agree with the push toggle suggestions, also think a KB reducer is a good buff for this skill, the distance you get kb is shortened some distance than the regular kb distance. can proc at some determined %. will stack with stance nicely

on strafe:
"[MM strafe] - strafe goes down to *3* lines with max marksmanship, slight att % increase to balance the four line average, and possibly strafe has a chance ignore w.def randomly, between 1-X (tbd)
-each arrow can KB a mob, like hurricane already does, instead of combining all arrows as one attack. Gives MM more control. excellent, simple qol, especially for bf hunting

3 line strafe suggestion gives MM:

• better knock-back, because of:
• higher average DOT, as opposed to 4, or more lines.
• this would also allow strafe to be cast slightly faster over time due to slightly less cast animation.
• ^ which overall means a better damage buff over time.
• saves arrows
• can see your damage output better in bosses, not many three line attacks
• and is very in line with MM being more efficient sharpshooters, needing less to do more, as opposed to the "more arrows more lines" suggestions, which isn't very snipery, that's more ranger/bm style

On concentrate (and enrage as well):
"Concentrate is a great vehicle to buff BM, but depending how, it can run the risk of the class now being constantly in a state of concentration, a new mandatory meta state and skill. It needs risks and drawbacks that demands attentiveness and control to maximize, like zerk, and this should be the same for enrage as well.
Personally I think concentration temporarily flat buffing avoid and dex and a chance to ignore weapon cancel is all it needs. Can be dispelled, has cd. Still believe it should cost you more mp, instead of save, as well as dampen you potion healing effects during"

This dichotomy is important, it makes these skills intentional and situational and players that can make the most of when to use them instead of "press buff, hold attack, new meta". That's why I've thrown so many ideas at the concentrate/rage/enrage/dragons blood skills, they are totally trivialized by the att pot meta, which will never go away, and comparing their suggestions to zerk-like risk/reward types is better overall for the health of those classes, and for reinforcing attentive, dedicated play instead of autopilot spamming.

Bms and birds:

• "-birds a chance to crit". small buff that will go a long way overtime
• "I think BM getting both birds, bird crit, and fire DOT are a good vehicle to buff them, which so many are asking for lately, and all three will do more than enough for BMs dpm complaints without direct buffs
• unfortunately both classes bird's suffer from elemental resistance."

I even think just BM only getting to summon both birds is fine too, MM don't need the coverage anyway, and any way to buff BM in small ways that overall make them better is the way to go for them, instead of flat damage

 

Revisiting my post:

I have thought about it and have come to update it.

Buff DEX avoid scaling, nerf LUK avoid scaling

• Buff DEX scaling to help corsairs/bowmen
• Buff Accuracy. Maybe 800+ accuracy can bypass darkness or something of that nature or crit damage scales with Accuracy
• Nerf LUK scaling very slightly to let them vaguely stay at the same avoid with the DEX avoid buff, making thieves lose 50 avoid max. Looking at you 87/87 Auf NLs

These are two lvl 200 players from damage range thread.

• One has a stat that scales well with their main stat giving them 889 points in that stat
• The other has a stat that scales well with theirs giving them a whopping 902 points in one stat

One of these stats allows that player to prevent getting hit at a much higher rate allowing higher DPM and less hp pot usage.

The other does nothing after like 300 points in it, and in 95%+ cases you only need like 150 points in it (outside of Royal Guards).

 

Hello Royallers,

we would like to gather some more feedback on suggestions regarding Monster Buffs and how to deal with them.

We currently have the following Monster Buffs in the game.
Weapon Cancel

• Sets all incoming weapon damage to 1
• Can be bypassed by White Knight‘s Total Crash buff

Magic Cancel

• Sets all incoming magic damage to 1
• Can be bypassed by White Knight‘s Total Crash buff

Damage Reflect

• Reflects some of your damage back to you
• Has a version for physical and magical damage, one for physical and one for magical damage only
• Cannot be bypassed or removed

Weapon Attack Up

• Increases it’s own/other parts Weapon Attack
• Can be removed by Dragon Knight’s Power Crash skill

Weapon Defense Up

• Increases it’s own/other parts Weapon Defence
• Can be removed by Dragon Knight’s Power Crash skill
• Can be removed by Crusader‘s Armor Crash skill
• Can be removed by Priest‘s Dispel skill
• Can be removed by Hermit‘s Shadow Meso skill (unlike the other skills, which are 100% only at a 10% rate)

Magic Attack Up

• Increases it’s own/other parts Magic Attack
• Can be removed by Dragon Knight’s Power Crash skill

Magic Defense Up

• Increases it’s own/other parts Magic Defence
• Can be removed by Dragon Knight’s Power Crash skill

Hard Skin

• Only critical hits hit through it's debuff
• Can sort of be bypassed by Bowmaster’s and Marksman’s Sharp Eyes buff

From the skills perspective it looks like this:

• Dragon Knight's Power Crash removes Weapon Attack Up, Weapon Defense Up, Magic Attack Up and Magic Defense Up.
• Crusader's Armor Crash removes Weapon Defense Up.
  
• White Knight's Total Crash can bypass Weapon Cancel and Magic Cancel.
• Priest‘s Dispel skill removes Weapon Defense Up and cures players from all abnormal conditions besides Confusion („Crazy Skull“), Zombify, Stun and Seduce.
  
• Hermit‘s Shadow Meso can remove Weapon Defense Up at a 10% rate.

Spoiler: Update log

Originally,

• Dragon Knight's Power Crash removed Weapon Attack Up.
• Crusader's Armor Crash removed Weapon Defense Up
  
• White Knight's Total Crash was called Magic Crash and removed Magic Defense Up.

Meanwhile,

• Dragon Knight's Power Crash was changed to also remove Magic Attack Up, Weapon Defense Up and Magic Defense Up in Update 50.
  
• Crusader's Armor Crash was renamed to Magic Crash and changed to remove Magic Cancel instead of Weapon Defense Up in Update 50. This change was reverted in Update 54.
  
• White Knight's Magic Crash was renamed to Armor Crash and changed to remove Weapon Cancel instead of Magic Defense Up in Update 50. In Update 54 it was renamed again to Total Crash and Magic Cancel was added to also be removed by it. Finally in Update 71 it was changed from a skill into a buff that bypasses the above instead of removing them.
• Overall there were some other minor changes regarding the amount of monsters affected, the effectiveness of the skills/buffs and their ranges.

This leads us where we currently are. While White Knight's Armor Crash has found its place in the game. Dragon Knight's Power Crash and Crusader's Armor Crash share the same role, while Dragon Knight's version of the skill is surperior as it can do the same main purpose and a bit more. A straight revert of Dragon Knight's Power Crash was discussed but decided against as it would be quite some nerf after having this version for so long. Especially since the average player’s HP in MapleRoyals is much higher than back then. We've considered other ideas for it like cancelling Damage reflect or turning it into a buff that protects party members against it. Ultimately we decided against that too and rather investigate a delay between Damage Reflect's animation and effect more.
On top of that Priest‘s Dispel skill also removes Weapon Defense Up on top of it's abnormal status curing abilities and there was a suggestion of changing that. While thinking about that we found in exchange for removing Weapon Defense Up we could add more abnormal abilities to its curing and Bishop's Holy shield protection list.


Finally, please provide us some input on the following questions before we make a decision as these ideas can be seen controversial:

1. Should Priest‘s Dispel and Hermit's Shadow Meso no longer be able to remove Weapon Defense Up to make removing it warrior exclusive?
2. Should Priest‘s Dispel instead be able to remove Confusion („Crazy Skull“) and Zombify?
   We are hesitant about confusion as it might cause more problems than it could solve. We are also exploring ways to make that debuff fade or flash before it expires.
3. Should Bishop‘s Holy Shield instead be able to protect against Zombify and Confusion („Crazy Skull“)?
4. Do you have any other ideas to make Dragon Knight's Power Crash and Crusader's Armor Crash unique, but both useful?

Thanks for your feedback!

 

1) No, certainly not. Removing armor up is one of the main tasks of a bishop in HT, and removing that ability turns bish into even more of an HS mule.

2) I'd just add zombify to the dispellable list, as it directly prevents bishops from using one of their core support skills, without doing much else since potions are cheap

3) I'm honestly not sure about this. Maybe, maybe not. I don't think it would make a huge difference in how desired bishops are

4) Greatly boost the effects of attack and def up buffs, so that when fighting a boss with one, it's highly advised to bring a warrior. Maybe give Hero the ability to strip weapon up too, they need it. Maybe even swap weapon and armor crash as DKs already have a useful party buff and are generally higher DPS than Hero.

 

1. I think dispel having a chance, instead of 100%, to remove def up is better than taking away it's ability to cancel def up (even though I personally don't think dispel should work on positive buffs, even on mobs, since it doesn't also dispel players positive buffs)

I think shadow meso ignoring def up is better than cancelling it, as well as shout, and sacrifice

2. Bless is more appropriate than dispel to remove zombify. I don't think confusion should be dispellable. I don't really think dispel should do more than it already does, especially with the hw20 buff.

3. I see no problem with this, it just makes your shield more strategic

4. ...hmm, mentioned it long ago but I'll throw this out, I'd say let heroes armor crash dispel DR if you also have 10 orbs, and consumes them, or coma can crash DR with 10 orbs (and consumes 10) and 250 mp
(and also possibly let enrage ignore DR, so party/solo/mixed skill investment/playstyles can all still coexist)

However, two things here:
1. I do think that saders/hero's having the ability to 90/100% crash def up is better than priests/bs (who should only have a chance, 30-40% to dispel instead of 100%, and dispel MP cost should go up if it dispels on a boss), but that the mobs/bosses def up buff should maybe be slightly shorter just to recompense the possibility of the party having no hero
2. At this point, I think that enrage being able to ignore DR (great hero buff) while also having a chance to crash DR (great untapped utility), is the best way to buff it at the moment, no str/att buffs needed. Maybe some avoid bonuses, but this is a nice and simple buff that gives hero's solo or in parties a very helpful and unique ability. Enrage ignoring def up is also a good consideration, as well as avoid buff, kb distance buff (player gets kb shorter, stacks nice with stance), pets ignoring commands during enrage, slight resistance to common statuses, increase brandish 1v1, can be dispelled, CD, etc

As for power crash, and all mobs attack+ buff, I'd make the mobs attack buff higher across the board, so it actually warrants players wanting or possibly needing to actually crash it, especially since power crash is often not an invested skill. This gives it utility for parties with lower average HP, but players or parties with higher HP probably won't need to worry about it, and both situations are healthier overall for the diversity of players and playstyles


As for magic cancel, giving demon's proc an added effect for a chance to ignore magic cancel gives arches some utility without breaking current conventions and promotes multi skill juggling instead of the usual spamming

As for damage reflect being more easy to telegraph, make the animation always be on top of all damage displays, or, as I suggested, have max HW20 give you a visual/text splash warning that it was cast as soon as a mob casts it locally for you. This makes HW20 much more valuable (and yes HW should be able to be used from DS after a certain level of HW, or maxed)

 

Currently I am very happy to see Pally's in the metagame as they are right now. I think the change to Crash was a very good one.
Allthough, I want to make a remark about Weapon Cancel. (And Magic Cancel, but who cares about mage only runs ;d)
Currently the difference between a Zak run with Crash or without Crash is just adding 10 minutes in total of basically doing nothing while bossing.

The only counterplay beside bringing a Pally or CR mule to a Zak run is spending another 3 smega's and 30 minutes of FM AFK time in hopes to find it.
I think this very much not engaging or fun.

If a change could be made that either there was f.e. a default 10% chance to ignore weapon cancel, or functioned as a temporary shield. If desired, a stronger or full-house party could just decide to go without praying for a pally for another 30 minutes.
Players that are play during low player base hours due to time zones could have more space to run as they want instead of failing to create a party within a 1 hour timespan.

Additionally, allthough these issues could and should be idealy addressed differently than nerfing weap cancel.
The case of an 10 minutes down time due to not having CR at Zak is not only boring but also adds to the chances of people DCing, therefor NL's running out of stars, buyers dying because they read in guide that Auto-HP is not trustworthy so they don't have it and fail to manually pot.
Or you went with CR but the CR disconnects and are in the same situation.
Or the Bishop DC's and now 2 people did not bring all-cures.

Those last examples might seem stupid, but if you play outside of peak hours, just spend 45 minutes to find 4 people to go for a non-cr zakum run. This mechanic adds the chances of shit going #justzakumthings. And can be very demotivating. This is one of the first bosses new players can do and the accumulation of these things does not increase the enjoyment of this content. Its not engaging or fun and the only counterplay is patience and enough meso to buy smega's. Unless if you have Pally friends that play during same time as you. But most new players do not have this.

tl;dr
Nerf weapon cancel so that non-cr runs are more viable.

edit:
I understand that people ran without changed Crash before. Things changed. Currently, about 30% of all steam games are played for longer than 30 minutes. First impressions matter.

Just reading the last summary of what classes cancel what monster buffs made me realise that its another thing Heroes did not receive a respectable toolkit for. I think its very okay to make them at least cancel the same buffs as DK's.

And yes, I do support the buff damage and defense up-monster buff. I am playing DK for quite a while and have this skill at level 30 since 3rth job. Never have I heared someone asking me to use it. I used it once one a ToT boss, as far as i remember.

 

If you think about adjusting the buff interactions, it might be viable to think about the niche that are mage boss runs. Therefore I suggest to give Archmages the ability to cancel magic cancel. It would probably be used only very rarely but it would also not hurt adding it. However as it is very niche it is not worth adding if it requires significant work.

 

One of the stupidest things about crazy skull is that the icon cycles between crazy skull and whatever other debuffs you might have, so there are times when you might be affected by crazy skull even with no crazy skull over your head. This is the most noticeable against Ephenia and makes it impossible to tell exactly when the debuff expires. Can crazy skull always be visible when active, maybe?

 

Buff and equalize the three different Warriors Crashes so they all behave the same and removes what each one does individually, currently. It's kind of strange to have such an impactful thing like Weapon Cancel only be able to be dealt with by a single job. Then, uncap Blast.

 

DK berserk is now only triggered when HP falls below a certain percentage.

I think it would be better if it is changed to increase the corresponding attack when the HP lost.The lower the HP, the higher the attack.

 

As a hero player (an honestly I feel like the only active one these days lmao) armor crash is 100000% a useless skill. If we can configure it to not play the paladin’s shadow and be beneficial to ignore something like DR (as long as orbs are active) or give SOME type of incentive, maybe we’d see heroes actually gain some type of usefulness because in terms of DPS we slug behind drks and arguably palis (when they have arguably again the best party skill buff in the game). We fall in the category of “the class isn’t that bad but there’s better, why play this?” In terms of damage cancellation and crash output etc, it’s honestly irrelevant when people wash all their chars, hell even their mages these days.

 

did you notice how significantly the dmg from ranged attackers raises as soon as armor up is removed from HT (or zak, etc)? The DPS difference between armor up and armor down is dramatic the more ranged attackers you have (aka higher attack speeds present).

edit: just wanna say, armor crash is not trash for real .. It is a support skill for sure, but it is not trash.

 

Tbh no because bosses immediately recast it as soon as I take it away anyways, I actually lose out on dps constantly recasting it for like an extra few seconds of “normal damage.” The skill is useless

 

for fast attacking range attackers armor up is really bad, its like 25% (?) DPS difference, at least thats the case for BM - didnt do exact math but its a huge chunk!

Maybe they could make armor crash a passive abil so that every hero slash has like a 50% chance to cancel armor up then? Or like "for 180 sec, your slashes remove armor up. 60 sec cooldown" or seomthing .. So you can keep your DPS and be useful as a support in the same time?

At least in the case when there is a weaker hero and a stronger BM in party, crash pays off really well. I get it cuts off your DPS.

 

i like the effort, but i honestly think that crash just needs an overhaul similar to pali, some type of actual useful implication that makes hero an appealing class to play since their DPS is at the bottom of the barrel. If not armor crash, people suggested enrage or just a DPS increase whether it’s brandish’s super inconsistent damage or a % increase in combo