In Discussion Bossing [Feedback Request] Von Leon

Splash damage

 

revert lightning dmg please

as a drk player, i really enjoyed the aspect that this boss required manual potting especially when there are mobs around, and this change reduced the need for skillful manual potting. The challenge of zerking and dealing with mobs at the same time has always been fun to me, but this change diminishes that fun quite a lot as you no longer need to manual pot to survive lightning attacks even when you're being crowded by a group of gargoyles.

i get that this change is so that unwashed players can join VL runs, but it also reduces the desire for squads to recruit drks for their HB. I mean, i thought this boss was supposed to be the end game boss . I think a better way would be to jus revert the lightning range and damage, so there's still the threat of dying to lightning, but there's counterplay as players can choose to dodge it if they keep their distance.


like right now, if you did a secret change and changed the lightning damage to like maybe 100 or something, no one and even zerking drks would notice it , that's how much of a threat lightning has become.

 

If the primary concern is drk gameplay, wouldn't it make more sense to make one of vl's melee ranged attacks do the old lightning damage?

 

they already do! the slow claw / double poison swipe does similar damage to old lightning and the fist groundslam does slightly lesser than old lightning

 

Maybe we just need the frequency of these attacks increased, and lightning slightly decreased? My issue is that high damage ranged attacks are pretty exclusionary and it's hard to find enough drks to support all the ranged who aren't at 18k. Meanwhile ultra rich players wash to 30k anyways, so the high damage is just gatekeeping mid HP ranged classes. I'd also like to see the range on slash reduced to help with this - just the lightning change does nothing as that slash is near impossible to avoid.

If possible, the best solution is probably make the nearby lightning (same range as before buff) hit for the full 18k and the extended lightning hit for less, but I feel like that might not be possible to implement.

 

I think this version VL is best after v1/v2/v3
Melee and range both need and bs need more work
Not just res mule
but since staffs want a 12-18man content
I think still need nerf a bit
There are only 4-5 teams (whole server) running this boss atm
Such a waste to me,
Cuz this boss is super fun!
I hope more ppl and more teams can enjoy it and give it a try

I think can try
Total hp 5b nerf to 4b
About mobs
From a 40-45 minutes run
Mobs spawn
Around 15 spawns gargoyle
Total hp= 30m hpx3 x15 =1.35b
Around 10 spawns mini golem
Total hp = 6m hp x10 x10 = 600m hp
Total mobs = 1.95b hp around

Last VL v3
A 50-55 minutes run
Gargoyle 40m hp with 18 spawns like = 2.16b
Mini golem 6m hp with 12 spawns like = 0.72b
So we can see already big nerf to mobs
Do remember stun 2 sec > 1 sec is a big change too
And mobs attack animations clear now
so I think mobs can don’t touch atm

so maybe adjust VL hp to 4b I think

Another feedback thing is
VL need too high acc
Warrior Bucc need pay 40-55 pops than other jobs (-15m)
Maybe change acc need lower to 200-220

 

Overall it's feeling pretty good to me. HP and mobs are in a good spot at least for the runs I've been on. 28 person run leaving ~20 mins left implies it's about right for 18 people, maybe slightly tough? But also death counts matter a LOT for this boss, so clearing with 18 seems reasonable if low/near 0 deaths.

I can't say for sure this forces a healthy balance of melee and ranged, but it certainly seems like it so far. Bishops also now have plenty to do, I was skeptical of the seduce when it was added but I think it works out well. The def up buff by mobs also gives a bit more use to dispelling, along with the slow from the slash attack.

I'd say there's still a couple places that can be improved:
- Loot is still in a very awkward spot, I'd recommend looking back to my previous post with a suggested bonus room (although I provide starting numbers, you might want to adjust some. Thinking back on it, the rate of manuals seems a bit high, so it could be good to reduce that rate and add a few other jackpot items) in terms of meso gain, and for 18 people having a full 6 belt sets seems like a lot. 6 sets is great for 30 people, for 18 maybe 4 is more appropriate.
- This still requires ranged attackers to have 18k HP, due to the slash attack. Reducing the lightning damage helps, but the slash attack is still far too fast and long ranged for it to be reasonably avoided, especially on archers. Either reduce the range (recommended) or damage on that attack too please.
- Belt still seems just absolutely miserable on mages, an allstat 1 scroll for it would be greatly appreciated since mages going for it will generally want chaosing to improve 3 different stats (vs 1 on attackers), with the best possible scenario still barely as good as a +1 atk roll for attackers. Then it'd be reasonable to just reloot for a godly belt and scroll that up consistently, instead of a much worse chaos path than attackers.

 

This was done by 18 man squad with ample time to spare and mind you, although this run was smooth, it is, imo, far from the perfect conditions required for running 12 man, that's why i'm fairly confident that 12 man is possible with the current version (demon elixers + 12 stacked players + minimal mistakes). So im against the idea of anymore nerfs to VL hp. Another nerf would just mean that it's gonna make 10 man possible and players are gonna ask for more nerfs again and it becomes a cycle. I always thought the idea of clearing a run with 12 players was supposed to be a difficult feat but not insurmountable, and something that players can pride themselves on if they do clear it. It shouldn't be turned into something that random squads can easily do every week.

Besides, the loots aren't that great, so the only point for players to even attempt a lower player count run is solely for the feat itself.

 

Few things I want to say about this version:

Gargoyles:
1) The change to the animation is great, I can finally see where I'm standing during gargoyle spawns.
2) The mob HP change is also nice, it was scaled down to fit lower player count and I'm in favor of that
3) The new stun duration just makes it so gargoyle stuns simply are not dangerous anymore.
It went from #1 threat to like #5 threat after rock, laser, bird and confusion running out.
Do I want the old stun back? no, that was not good either IMO.
The solution for me is either reworking the mobs like I suggested before, or leaving it as a minor threat while implementing other ones.

Party size:
I am NOT in favor of any further nerfs, this boss is very doable in 18 man on all levels of gear, and with less if more geared.
It is in a good spot in that sense.
I'm happy about reducing it from a 24 man+ boss to 18 man, but I would really not like to see it reduced further.
Big parties are a part of the fun in this boss, and it gave it identity in royals.

Difficulty:
I feel the recent change decreased the difficulty by quite a bit.
It added way more deaths due to confusion running out, but removed the threat from mob stuns almost entirely.
Yes, theres still HSH to coordiante, but it's just not as important anymore.
I think difficulty should be bumped up in terms of mechanics the boss has to offer, and not in terms of HP values.

Lightning:
In my opinion, lightning damage should not be reduced.
If you want to cater to player who are less washed, just use the old value, both the damage and the range.
Players should have a way to counterplay it and avoiding getting 1-shot, and I honestly don't see what this version of lightning is trying to accomplish anymore.

Drops:
What incentive is there to run 18 man?
The tradable drops are still very underwhelming, and the untradables are so excessive that every member can get what they want even in a 24 man party.
I would still do the lowest party size I can, because the main aspect of this boss to me is fun and challenge, but it's bad for longevity.

Overall I'm happy with the fact that this boss is constantly being changed, and I'm also glad that more squads show interest in the boss again, but to me there's a lot to be improved, before players start losing interest and realizing it's just not worth running.
Thank you for your efforts!

 

Reduce long range slash damage.
In it's current state, and since release, it has served as a HP check to ranged players. If you haven't spent billions washing your character playing leechstory or completed 6 months + worth of HP quests, you are at the mercy of HB. Until VL, the manageable HP requirement to do all content (excluding toad, but you can just park a dk in the map with no difficulty) was 12k which is why the 'search for elixir of life' quest has its cap. This cap made sense pre VL, now it's a hard restriction so in my opinion one of two things needs to change. Raise the quest hp cap or reduce the long range slash damage, the latter would be preferred.
With this change, it will open the door to ALOT more casual ranged players willing to give this a go.

Thankyou for the lightning damage reduction. It was dodgeable until the range increase. The reasons behind that reduction should be applied here too.

 

I hate giving 20m splits and 100m splits to over 20 people

 

I think they’d have to lower dmg of 3rd body’s knock back punch as well if you don’t want any hp check attacks.

 

Haven't spent enough time in 3rd body admittedly so I can't make comments on that attack

 

I second this. I am a marksman main and grinded hp quest til 10k and can do most content just fine without hb, including Auf. It is currently unfeasible to be a ranged attacker in VL if you do not meet the hp check.

 

thank you for your effort and consistency! i think it’s just challenging enough that most teams who focus on skill/communications should be able to clear with 18 and most teams if not all- with 30. i do miss the inclusivity of low hp attackers being able to dodge ranged attacks, but i can’t complain being it’s an end game boss.

the release of vl is the most fun i’ve had on royals. i’m so glad you guys decided to implement more unique game play. the fact it’s not braindeadly holding down a button and requiring actual teamwork makes it just a way cooler boss than all the rest. with that being said, i wish more players get to experience it. there are a lot of requirements: hp/dps/communications/hosts that know what they’re doing/there’s even a social aspect required. atm you kind of have to do some networking to get into a vl run (because like doo said there are only 4-5 teams in the server)

my goal with hosting runs at first was simply to beat the boss, and since it changed a few times, we had to beat it a few times. then it came to helping my whole team gets belts. and now everyone’s belted up. now what? i don’t have anything to reward my team with anymore.

if the expectation is that ppl who want perfect belts will keep running, then only the strongest/wealthiest players in the server will really experience this unique game play. which is such a waste!

there just isn’t enough realistic profit potential. so not only are we losing money, the hosts have taken on the hassle of chasing down everyone to give them insignificant splits. i am holding 10 vl boots that no one wants to buy. i’m griefing our bookkeeper.

p.s. can something be done about mobs suddenly appearing in the pirate jail? i literally dodge everything just for one to summon on top of me. and then sometimes the mobs fly??

thank you for listening!! amazing work regardless ♥️

 

It's been getting harder and harder to fill runs, I think mostly because there's just no profit in running VL anymore. People ran for the fun, but now they've beaten VL and had their fun, and as in most MMOs profit > fun.

A couple things I've said before that I want to reiterate, as I've seen no replies on them and personally I think they would help a lot with getting more runs going:

- Belt still sucks to get on mage, harder to get a good belt with less payoff vs attackers. It'd be nice to see this revisited, seeing as belt already doesn't have many people going for it.
- Ranged attackers still need 18k HP, adding an arbitrary high HP check when most wash to ~12k. Seems mostly like unnecessary gatekeeping on the boss - all attacks above 12k should be avoidable for range, and currently the claw that slows (and probably knockback groundpound in p3) aren't really avoidable. As I said before, having damage change based off how far you are from VL would be the best answer.
- Weekly reset should be on Thursday or Friday. Putting it in the middle of the weekend makes it very awkward, since most people find the weekend easiest to run, but that then pretty much forces you to schedule a run right before weekly reset. Meaning if the Saturday run falls through due to low signups, people don't have time to attend a different run during the week. This causes future weeks to have even lower signups as people don't want to commit and waste a run. Moving reset to thurs/fri would put both weekend runs right after reset, allowing people a bit more time to attend extra runs if necessary.
- Dirty magic scroll shouldn't be 1 of a kind. I still don't see why this change was made. No other boss entry item is one of a kind.

Loot:
The current drops I think are at an appropriate powerlevel, and shouldn't really be buffed. The issue with VL's loot is that the profit needs to be split between 12-30 people, who are probably using 6 apples (or higher attack pots). This makes it very hard for VL to compete with other bosses like auf, as the drops need to be absurdly high priced to justify running for all those people, and there's just not enough endgame players looking to buy the loot. This is why I will continue to recommend adding a bonus room to VL, which also solves the issue of running around and giving 30 different people 20m splits. Refer to my previous post on suggested items for it: https://royals.ms/forum/threads/feedback-request-von-leon.210514/page-7#post-1258192

This bonus room solves a lot of problems:
- Totems are very hard to farm on some classes, so provides a few (~25/bonus room at my listed probabilities) totems to help out mages/NLs. Still worth running golems as it's a very slow income, but it helps.
- Provides income that should usually cover apples, with a chance at chase items to encourage people to gamble on running (like they do with v1 for EP or HT for MW20)
- Provides income that I don't need to chase down 20 different people to give them. (Well, I actually made a mule purely for holding splits and have people come to me. Still, kind of a pain recording it all.)
- Fills in gaps for some rare items that don't have other good sources. I believe a few scrolls there are only gacha right now, and a few are only from halloween ghost
- Gives a new equip for people to degen cs on
- Helps add more bonus rooms since bonus rooms are fun!

As said in that post, if you want you can also restrict it to only 12-18 bonus room entries per run.

 

i'm not a host for any vl squads, but from what i know, the general consensus from some of the squad hosts is that it's getting increasingly difficult to get players to fill a run with each passing week. Afaik, there are only 3-4 squads right now that does VL in the entire server, and it's only gonna get lower as players lose their interest in this content, i think that says a lot.

the current issue with this boss is that there isn't any real incentive for players that aren't attempting to finish their belts to participate other than to socialize and have fun. Drops suck, and even if you get a wet run, it is still underwhelming if you compare it to horntail/auf haven which are daily bosses.

when this boss first came out, i always thought this boss would be :
1) very difficult
2) very rewarding

sure, you can argue that the belt is the best in slot, and should be the main priority for anyone that participates. Problem is the belt is exp af to craft and scroll, and takes forever since it's a 2x per week boss and the von leon chaos scroll has a 60% pass rate , majority of the players would be like "fuck that", and just settle for a 2 att belt, so there goes your belt incentive.

also, due to the lack of interest in scrolling von leon belts by many players, it's really difficult to recruit players for GOLEM LHC runs to farm energy, since bearwolves generally give better XP / totems. thank god i'm a op drk, imagine if i'm an nl trying to recruit golem pt yikes.

12 man is indeed possible right now with optimal party composition and players, but if you look at the drops and look how abundant the untradeables are every run, there's no point in attempting to go for a lesser player count run, like why would they? they risk a high chance of failing, and the rewards simply aren't worth the risk, this is why those 3-4 squads are still running 20+ players per run despite the lowered hp pool.


If staff really wants to make this into a 12~18 player content, you could consider

1) reducing hp even more (i guess this might be needed if the intention is to bring it down to a median of 12~18 player size expedition, and also, i think this would create more opportunity for players to create their own expeditions instead of relying on the same exclusive 3-4 squads)
2) increase difficulty or introduce more difficult elements to compensate for the lower hp
3) cap expedition size to 20
4) increase rewards considerably to incentivize interest and participation in von leon content. (also, players will tryhard more if they know good shit awaits them if they clear)

otherwise i can see von leon being dead content real soon, or maybe it kinda already is

 

I agree with @lxlx very much, but I would prefer seeing a harder boss with better rewards over an easier boss that is more casual.
I think you need to give people incentive to run rather than make the boss easy to the point that more parties will naturally form, because it's a more healthy and challenging approach, which is the whole point of this boss anyway.
I would take those 2 points into consideration:

This version of the boss is one of the easiest we have seen, and I believe any squad that is somewhat experienced can have a very high clear rate.
With 4 bishops and 4 buccs, the margin for error is huge, especially if you do bigger party sizes (21-30 man).
I can speak on behalf of my group when I say the main incentive for us to run is challenge, and in order to achieve a run that is interesting we have to constantly push the party size and tweak the party composition.
I seriously don't know how many more weeks we have in us until it just becomes a stale routine and people will just stop running slowly.

I feel like I gave a lot of suggestions in the past, but I see things a little differently now and I would make those suggestions for mechanics changes:
1) Misses on rocks shouldn't be a thing. (outside shifter/guardian)
2) If you still choose to go the stuns route - the recent change made them meme.
The mob stuns do next to nothing now, and dying to them is a rarity - by the time the iframe ends u are almost safe.
Mobs should either be tweaked to be more dangerous in a different way, or there needs to be a middle ground between last update's stun duration and this.
In addition - I realized over time that bird stun still does nothing, how many bird stun deaths can you even recall? Consider adding 0.5s to it.
Edit: if you edit 0.5s to bird stun, you also need to add 0.5s to the beginning of its animation, so it won't chain stun.
3) Damage Reflect needs to do something, not only it's not dangerous at all, but it also gives you iframes that help attacking through rocks and lasers without minding them. Together with DR, there are just too many filler skills.
Please make DR able to actually kill people, or just remove it completely.
4) Jail rooms need more diversity, and I know you are already aware of this.
5) Consider making lasers more punishing, half the time lasers are followed up by a non-damaging skill anyway.

Please remember, making this boss harder serves no purpose unless you also bump up the drops, people need to make some actual profits.
At this point you should really consider one of:
1) a bonus room
2) an exchange system with points you get from defeating the boss

I hope we can get more challenge and rewards, because I really feel like VL is becoming a bit of a sleeper boss.

 

Once again plugging the suggestion that there exists no reason why a 200 bucc or warrior should miss VL.

Please reduce accuracy requirements. No other class in the game misses VL.

 

i don't think von leon should be a twice a week boss, just feels like an artificial way to extend players' commitment. A lot of players just login twice a week for their weekly von leon and repeat the next week. Also, the rate at which players can progress their belts is already limited by the crafting materials required from LHC, and on top of that, von leon cs has a 60% rate of passing. I'm not sure about others, but the feeling of waiting for week after week for parchment, and only to have it fail is miserable.



At least if von leon was a daily once per day boss, i could see players being more active in terms of farming crafting materials, or just farming in general to fund their belt progression.