Not really a VL feedback but could we also have burning energies be stackable like purification totems, rather than only having it at 200 per slot? EDIT: Also can we have it so that the VL belts can't be NPC'd?
I'd like to agree on this point after attempting zerking in VL. I always have to waste dps by potting to safe HP levels during the blindness as I couldn't see and manage my HP. Although we can dodge it, when we're stuck in animation we still get hit by it sometimes. *Also when we are skulled.
cleared VL with 18man create 18man Party composition : 6nl 2se 4bucc 2 shadower 1 paladin 1dk 2bs time left : 10:04 compare to Rogue 18man Party compotition: 9nl 3se 3bucc 1 shadower 2bs (1nl dc when summon , so actually is 17man ) time left : 12:28 Obviously, warrior just slower the run right now because mobs too few (6>>4) , don't really need most strong multi-target jobs( dk/hero) to clear mobs (this is with APPLE) so what's the point to recruit warriors right now? If mobs so ez to clear.... Ideal situation on single target 14206 range hero dps = 7000 range nl 13430 range dk dps = 7000 range nl so if run cost 50minutes 14206 range hero deals 247119.4x60 x50= 741358200 around 741m hp 13430 range dk deals =741358200 too and we all knows if u rich enough to gear a hero too 14k range ur nl range very ez 9k + 9k nl deal 301395.4 dps after apples so 50minutes =904186200~904.2m hp that's 162828000 (162.8m hp) damage differnt if u dk the difference ~~~Ht leg hp = 130mhp so if we replace hero/dk even pala too nl = run faster hero/dk already not shine after auf released, I hope is time for them to shine I suggest mobs should revert too 6 Or VL actually still NL haven ....
Can we talk about buffing the boss now? I think the suggestion of reverting the mobs back to 6 spawning is due. Warriors are a joke in this boss at this current state and I personally do not see a point in recruiting them. @Doo 's comment properly shows the gap between a weak class (Warriors) and a strong viable class (Night Lords). Adding onto that point, warriors excel at multitargeting and bosses that encourage this playstyle will be better for them. 4 mob spawns are way too little and during my guild's run, we mostly just had a supposedly subpar mobber use their weak AOE attacking skill to kill mobs. Nice class diversity I must say.
Can we make some improvements to the drops as well? I don’t even know how to discuss this [?] topic at this point… And yes guys, this [?] drop is actually what came out after @lee1 collected all the cards. Theres no photoshop in this.
Can developers fix the client crash issue at the highest priority? We have only two runs per week it's so sad to disconnect from a run when I had the priority of looting belt. I even tried switching to integrated GPU but only VL still crashing my client there is nothing more I can do. This made me laughing so hard, when there is no point downing VL for drops and you found nor collecting cards
Ofc this reply is not directed to Zancks, since its published as a staff response. So, to staff as response for this statements: I was pretty shure since I witnessed the 1st run post nerf as you may see in my 1st reply(sorry if it was too agressive), but haved to wait till 18 man clear was a reality(and i can assure u, 12 man is possible and it wont change what im about to say). This Change KILLED the necesity of warriors on this boss, is not the amount of ppl, is the carecteristics.(even more, a 12 man CANT have warrs now LOL) Warriors, excel at multitarget in long term, while are kind of subpar in single target dmg, decent compared to everyone except NLs/Sairs, but still lower than buccs/shads. These ones are the oposite, they excel at single target dmg, but can deal a decent multitarget one. So, the fact these now are easy to kill, makes the squad no longer need an OP multitarget dmg dealer, with a barely decent one you have enough(buccs are pretty good already in this boss, so, they are more than enough to clear them) and now you preffer to bring a few more shads/buccs instead of warrs. Now, this is important, I feel that enough feedback about this topic has been made, and I wont be surprised if you guys are already considering to make some changes about this nerf, but please, PLEASE, TEST IT PROPERLY. I agree with Doo , Zusti, and some other ppl vision of warrior being purposeless now, but I strongly disagree with them stating that revert the mob spawn back to 6 is gonna give warrs(mainly Hero) and MMs relevance again. Thats just wrong, I can bet anything to anyone now, that it barely gonna change what we having now. That itself its not enough, my proposed changes are: 1- Revert BOTH Hardskin duration and mob spawn to 6 again. -This is something that i can foresee many ppl wont want(despite having several mobs hanging around for a while is what actually makes OP multirtarget a need), so another option will be: 2- Increase the Mob spawn to 9-10(believe me, anything less than 7 mobs per spawn with the current hardskin time and HP is not gonna change a shit), and maybe the frequency of the spawn skill. -This can make the run a bit chaotic, another solution can be: 3.- Increase the spawn back to 6, but GREATLY increase the Demon Hp, at least by 2.5 times( from 11.5m Hp they have now to something close to 25-30m HP each) - This would be the route I choose, you wanna make Heros/MMs relevant? Give them several targets to hit FOR QUITE A WHILE. Theres no difference between heros killing demons in 30 secs and buccs/shads in 50, but it will be noticeable if heros take 2 mins and shads/buccs take close to 4 mins. And it will not be the same being hard to kill due missing all the time vs being more tanky, this also encourage players to invest in their Heros/MMs. -I dont think that these changes will make the boss impossible to clear by 18 ppl, but, if after a reasonable time(not just 10-12 days again pls), the lack of single target dmg(due being forced to bring heros/MMs) makes VL ""impossible"" to kill again, then you might consider just to cut the Boss HP by a bit. Again, any "light" change on this department, will not change a thing....Test it, if you dont have enough ppl, then you might consider asking some players to be "temporary testers".... It seem pretty obvious that the drops arent enough, not even for 12 ppl(tbh, seems barely proffitable for 4 ppl, unless theres something really OP that it drops, and its just that no one got it yet), but im gonna respect the fact youre being cautious and patient to see how the market behaves(I just wish you were cautious and patient with the boss itself too, but nvm) TOPIC 2.- Drk performance on VL Feedback Currently all warriors are barely helpfull now, so im gonna speak from a pre nerf perspective AND, assuming staff will try to reinvindicate warrs in this boss, otherwise, theyre just purposeless, and theres no point to give an insight of any of their performance. So speaking as if the boss requires multitarget again: Drks are just bad, and could even be detrimental to the squad. If you see i mentioned just heros/MMs, and left out Drks and paladins in my previous aproach about the mob nerf, pre nerf, pallys were quite good, speacially when there was too many mobs in the map(and the will be decent with my proposition 2 and 3), now Drk is gonna suck regardless, lemme explain why as Summ up as I can: Its been stated that the boss is zerkable, and it UNDOUBTLY IS. Even more as a very experimented Drk user mentioned to me(actually for me He/she is the best Drk user in the game, and probably one of the best players in server, sorry Adam/sparks) told me: "I find this boss easier to zerk than Toad", and with one of the 2 ways there is to zerk in VL that is actually true. BUT when it comes to fullfil the purpose of multitarget(cleaning the spawns asap) the history is completely different. -Theres 2 ways to zerk currently: A.- Ginseng at low% with manual healing B.-Cheeses/milk(thaks to yeepogers client with pet multiheal) with manual healing aswell Option "A" makes overall zerking a bit easier(still need to be an experimented zerk user), but due the mobs hitting different amoutns of dmg, forces the user to contantly manual heal and be more attentive to his Hp that to actually be clearing the mobs, and fulfill the role that its suposeed to be his main one. As you can see here: When mobs spawn Awls spend quite a good amount of time, healing, rebuffing(cs the mobs dispel) and trying to enter into zerk range again, when a hero would just keep hitting *DISCLAIMER: THIS IS NOT A CRITIC TOWARDS lxlx zerking, his performance is remarkable, and close to perfect considering the pot route he took* Option B actually makes clearing the mobs a bit easier to handle(still really anoying to stay over 14k hp) but makes overall zerking harder, not only for lack of heal, but also for overhealing at times. TLDR. Zerkable, but close to impossible to do what a hero can do, or even do a decent job on our main purpose. On top of that add the fact that Drk is along with unwashed ppl or ppl who dont do the HP quest the only job that is in risk to die to every single skill that VL does, considering this is a boss with a high kill rate, even among 30k nls who can even get misses from pillars once in a while, bringin a drk to the squad could be even be detrimental. Think about it, why would you bring a job that its supossed to clear the mobs, if it cant do it properly and on top of that can cause aditional deaths? My suggestion: Well starting with, im one of the group who thinks that it doesnt matter if Drk its left out of some content, if, and only IF its OP it some other, like really tier S+, wich aside CWKPQ is not the case in any other boss in this game. If scalling zerk(120%dmg at 90%hp-140% dmg at 80% up to 230% dmg at 30% HP) is being worked on, thats enough, thats will make your drk as effectrive as you as a player are. This is sadly something that Matt called out as impossible, but that was b4 yeepog joined the team, so who knows... I have no clue if this is possible or if its even being considered, so i just trow it out as "if by any unlikely chance, this is being developing, it will be enough"´ Asumming nothing like this is being tested, I would like to suggest something a bit different(the oposite tbh) that my fellow drk users friends have been.- Make Zerk easier-Keep the other punishing mechanics. Is not about get gud(*cough cough, i managed to clear it dying just once while zerking most of the run cough*), is about being able to focus in helping the team instead of just focusing on myself. By: 1.-IDK whats the reasoning behing the dmg stablished on the flat dmg skills that VL does, like why it does 18k dmg instead of 15-16 or 20k...If this has a purpose, then let be it, if it doesnt has it, then you guys might want to consider reduced all the fixed dmg skills( i think its slash and thunder?) by 10%ish, tbh most ppl just dont care about the dmg these skills does. 2.-Thers some skills that are locked at some locations(Rush at Auf map for example) It is possible to make an skill that JUST works in a certain map? If this is the case an aditional achiles(AchilesII) that only works in this map can help too, AND it can also help to make PB hard witouth screw drks, but making it too easy to everyone else. I know Zerk is a mechaninc that always caused a headche to devs, this couldve a way to get out of it... 3.- The easiest way rn to help drks to zerk here is: Add a pot that heals 4500hp.... that couldve an effective band aid for now. Then why do i say to keep the other punishing mechanincs?(DR-and blind laser) because, this way Drks could match(and maybe outperform Heros if youre skilled enough) at B1-B2 but Heros will be waaay safer, and better outperforming Drks at b3... In other words, for the sake of balance Hope you guys can consider some of these suggestions. Thanks again for your hard work trying to make this game fun for all of us. -Relmy
i've no idea if this is possible, but it might be something - what if the mob buff worked in the opposite of how it is now? like instead of only crits being able to hit them, what if only non-crits are able to hit them? that way, nls won't be able to clear mobs that easily, but warriors/shads/buccs would be able to.
they're already relevant with or without their ability to clear mobs cos of SE... might even be better than BMs cos of RD. my speculations on class relevancy on the before and after effects of my proposed suggestion: BEFORE : -Right now, because of how easy it is for NLs to clear summons, warriors have lost their relevance. -BMs/MMs are sought after irregardless of their ability to clear summons or not, they've always been taken for their SE, not because they are needed for clearing mobs. AFTER : - NLs no longer able to deal with summons on their own since bulk of their dmg comes from high crit dmg, expedition leaders would have to balance their roster carefully for a successful run by adding warriors instead of stacking NLs, hence making warriors relevant again. - BMs/MMs will still be relevant for their SE.
Was anyone able to record the in-game feedback session? I had to step out and missed the early~mid part of the session.
if i'm not mistaken, i think the goal for this boss is for it to be a 'skill-check' boss, not a 'range/gear-check' boss, right now after attempting all the vl runs i could join for the past 3 weeks and learning all the mechanics there are to learn, i'd have to say, the mechanics feels very lackluster and not punishing at all. A bit of adjustments made to these mechanics will definitely make VL really challenging, and i've got a few ideas! VL hp can be reduced to scale according to the level of difficulty so that it becomes a skill-check boss and not a 'gear-check' boss. BIRD STUN The duration of the bird stun lasts too short for it to be of any threat, by the time vl is about to cast his next attack, the stun has already ended, definitely not a threat at all. Increase stun duration to 2x! KILL THEM IF THEY DON'T DODGE IT . Also, in my 9 runs ran so far, i've never seen anyone die because of a bird stun before . DOUBLE SWIPE + POISON The poison damage is pretty meh, and while the swipe damage does pose some threat, it really is nothing since autopot can counter that. The only real danger of this mechanic here is getting hit by 1-1 while being poisoned, or if you're a drk zerking that didn't dispel the poison, otherwise there's really no threat here. Since the poison damage isn't huge, players (except drks) have the luxury of just not acping it off right away, which kinda defeats the point of this mechanic. I would prefer if the swipe did no initial damage or 1 damage, but a really painful poison damage tick like 12k per second. This would force players to be really attentive to their character status, and if they're not careful and didn't notice the poison, it might pose a huge threat to their survivability. LASER EYE Make this a one hit kill but with a cooldown on it like how HT has a 5 mins dispel cooldown, this could have a 1 min cooldown timer. Squads would need to keep track of this mechanic like how they would track dispels in HT, playing really cautiously when laser eye is almost cd, and only letting loose after laser eyes is casted.
Personally I prefer laser being more spontaneous so that players have to constantly keep an eye on VL's animations and not just base it on a timer. Laser already is very avoidable for most classes. However, Buccs currently have a hard time dodging the laser 100% of the time because the animation is quicker than their barrage/demo animation. There's many times where a bucc is stuck in their animation and comes out of their invincibility frames just in time to get hit. It would be frustrating if they get 1-shot simply because they happen to cast barrage/demo at the wrong time. That being said, we do want to keep laser as a very punishing mechanic that should be avoided at all costs, just not to the point where it's a guaranteed death sentence at this moment. Edit: Also some insight, attacks such as laser are categorized separately from skills. From my understanding on client limitations, attacks can't be put on a cooldown. There also currently is no way to set attacks in a specific order (i.e. laser followed by golem drop).
After finally killing him, I think I'm now prepared to leave a bit more in-depth feedback besides my initial impressions Things that aren't the fight - Going for VL belt on mage feels VERY punishing right now, far more than for attackers. My proposed fix is adding an allstat 1 (add 1 MA too if you're feeling really generous, but imo not necessary) alternative to CSing. Then it's still a bit painful, but a lot better. Maybe have it take parchment + lots of belt 100%/60%/10%s to craft? I can expand on this and give more details if you want, just ask. I'm very happy with the numbers for attackers though, seems well balanced. - Some slight changes to the drops would be nice. I feel like there's a VERY heavy focus on the manuals, which seems to be flooding the market currently. Maybe a slight decrease in drop rate on the manuals, and increase in drop rate on lower value items (potions, css 20%) would help. - Along with that, add some purification totem drops for EVERYONE, maybe 10-20/kill? Some of the items take 500 totems to craft, and that's super hard to get for mages or NL. Once again, this can come at the cost of making the jackpots a bit rarer - While I do think keeping drops hidden was a fun thing to do, it did cause me quite a bit of concern as an organizer. It would have really sucked if someone looted a drop that turned out to be untradable, and they had no use for it. Some way to deal with drops so we can see if they're tradable/untradable before looting would be nice (perhaps an NPC to give them out?) - Weekly reset should be on Thursday or Friday. Putting it in the middle of the weekend makes it very awkward, since most people find the weekend easiest to run, but that then pretty much forces you to schedule a run right before weekly reset. Meaning if the saturday run falls through, people don't have time to attend a different run during the week. Moving reset to thurs/fri would put both weekend runs right after reset, allowing people a bit more time to attend extra runs if necessary. - Dirty magic scroll shouldn't be 1 of a kind. It's very nice qol to stack them up, not really sure why that was changed in the first place. All other boss entry items can be stacked up ahead of time, why not this? - Expedition chat would be huge. It does seem like chat travels farther than normal in the main map, but that doesn't work in aerial jail. The fight - Please remove/reduce the stairs (if possible, have them reappear after VL dies. Maybe a loot room?) They're just kind of annoying, especially with having to jump over the laser and then needing to down jump on like 5 steps in a row. - In my personal opinion, high avoidability and shadow shifter shouldn't work against ankhs/falling golems. I'd argue that guardian should, because taking guardian requires a real tradeoff and therefore should be rewarded. - Increase VL's accuracy. One DK told me it's very hard to zerk since half his attacks miss, meaning he's above zerk range after manually potting and not getting hit. This is especially noticeable with the lightning attack. - The darkness effect from laser eyes looks great, but it shouldn't really be covering UI elements like chat or HP - VL's slash attack (the one that applies slow) is the main thing that forces an HP requirement onto ranged attackers. It seems from the rest of the fight, VL is designed so that if you're skilled as a ranged attacker, HP isn't an issue since all his other attacks are dodgable. This one is just too long ranged and too fast to dodge. I'd recommend reducing the damage on this to hit about the same as the mobs - I do agree that the stun should last longer. Failing to dodge the bird has virtually 0 consequences currently. - Potentially make it so you can't have more than 4-5 golems OR blank spaces in a row. Dying to 7 golems in a row just feels unfair. - Potentially reduce VL's HP, but compensate by buffing mobs. You'd really have to test this to make sure you get it right. - I was personally hoping for a larger step up in mechanics for each body. Laser eyes were a great addition, but I think they should have been in p2 and then something more in p3. Along with maybe increasing the complexity of aerial jail rooms as the fight progresses (and then force people to do them by making it more common, with a potential reduction in VL's hp to compensate). - I'd like for bishops to be useful for something other than ress eventually. HSH/dispell arent' really necessary for the fight, so it's currently easiest for bishops to just stay unpartied. Overall I do think it's a good fight, although maybe a bit strong for 12-18 player clears to be reasonable for 99% of the server. I'd say minor tweaks are really all it needs. For future VL style bosses though, I'd love to see another significant step up in mechanics. Imagine something like aerial jail, but 2 people get jailed and need to work together, as an example. I'm sure there's still plenty to be done to increase difficulty in future bosses
I’d like to use this opportunity to discuss more about the tradeable drops. Spoiler: valuation lets take 18man run splits as an example 2/5 Von Leon shoes. Valuation : 500mil 500/18 = 27.7mil. Will10 , honestly i wouldn’t even pay 50mil for this book lmao. Von Leon has been release for few weeks now, but it feels like theres less than x2 royal throwing knives exists in the server. Not sure if the server is unlucky, or the drop rate is low. Playere probably gets 1 - 0 recipe per run. Note, the valuation might be alittle overvalued for these recipe. Bullet Recipe : 2bil 2b / 18 = 111mil Star Recipe : 3bil 3b / 18 = 166.77mil Arrow Recipe : 2bil 2b / 18 = 111mil Considering VL is a weekly x2 boss, the tradables are so bad right now, its profit is almost as good as selling an hour of skele leech after deducting apple costs. Improvements needs to be made for players to run this content, to be excited for the weekends, for a juicy, high rewarding content. Von Leon Parchments & Coins tradeable More belts, x4 Parchments x4 Coins Pushes players to keep relooting untradeable belts, and buy parchments to RNG for a decent weapon attack belt. Tradable Von Leon Helmet with 2 slots 10/10/10/10 stats, 2Slot, first slot to be used with VL soul second slot to be used with a normal CS. Start phasing out Pilgrim Hats Von Leon to drop multiple & high droprates for 10% eye & mouth main stats scroll Improvements will make weaker players to continue VL with 24-30 man teams and not feel disgusted with its poor aftertaste, and stronger players encouraged to risk with <18 man teams for better rewards.
DK should not have to manual pot prematurely since none of VL's skills hit for over 14k. There's a window of hp where one can stay zerking while surviving any of Von Leon's non-lethal attacks. That being said, adjusting the accuracy is something we'll be looking into and discussing. Expedition system would be amazing to have, though it would also be a very big task considering it came from a later version. The idea is not off the table atm but it's not something we can expect anytime soon. The only workaround I can think of right now is to utilize Buddy Groups and set your chat to message only that group. Personally, I quite like the effect covering the hp and chat. It adds a little more of a fear factor to it that creates a sense of panic. Being able to see your bright hp and chat while under it might take away the sudden anxiety you would get otherwise. Know that we're still discussing ways to adjust the difficulty of VL to something that's both challenging and rewarding! I don't agree with the benefit of having parchments and coins tradeable. Progressing one's belt should require them to partake in constant VL runs, not just do it once to loot a belt and then wait to buy the parchments/coins to upgrade. I would rather explore other ways to make VL more profitable in the long run.
After a few more clears I'd like to add a bit more to the discussions as others have and give input as to where changes might make things more fun/interesting 1. Boss Difficulty Bird Stun - Not very difficult to maneuver around and doesn't seem to punish players enough, I think the stun should be long enough that players can be 100% hit by a follow up stun or laser eyes on B3. A Rock drop following a stun should be more dangerous but not a 100% hit. Crazy Skull - Seems to only mostly affecting melee because of the range, this definitely increases the difficulty of avoiding the insta kill especially if it goes away while you are trying to dodge the falling rocks. Maybe increase the range of the skill so ranged attackers work around it as well. Laser Eyes - Increase the range greatly of this skill, make everyone including ranged attackers have to jump and then increase the chance of falling rocks right after it to punish people that don't dodge. Summons - I don't know what to recommend here, other than increasing the number from 4 take the rest of my feedback with a grain of salt, summons seem like a pain for melees because of the hardskin buff + dispell but without a decent number of them we are just back to NLstory. SE doesn't make fighting them feel any good and even as a paladin with heavens hammer I can't say that there is any satisfaction while clearing them, never once has it crossed my mind that I was glad to be a melee in this run. I think if we wanted to promote diversity in the boss fight maybe give them a proximity shield or something that stops them from taking damage if attacked from a certain distance and beyond. Rock Drop - Maybe make it so no luck is involved, no effect of Shifter/Guardian or misses. Just straight up dodge or die. 2. Drops After spending money on apples and maple pops for one hour, the drops gave me depression Even on an 18man run I don't think the money earned will be worthwhile as @Jooon calculated above You've gotta hit decent shoes to make money, so maybe adding glove/cape/ring/rarer scrolls anything tbh that could just increase the value of completing the boss. Hero's Will 10 only has value due to the rarity so far on the server, other than that I just don't see any value to it. Same 360s CD and only a variety a different things added to be cleansed doesn't feel like enough. Possible Changes: - Passive chance to avoid effects on your character including sed maybe capped at 15% - Reduced mana cost to 0 at level 10 I think maybe the star will maintain a decent value but I am doubtful about the bullet with how many we have out for sale and none sold so far. No clue about the arrow. I don't know if anyone is at the point where they are selling belts or sets but so far the groups I have run with have basically raffled everything out. So if you don't win the raffle you're spending a decent amount of mesos with small chance at a reward. Maybe adding a 2x a week quest for killing VL that rewards 25 totems would be nice. Gives people working towards finishing belts a bit of help and everyone else that came on the run a chance at the LHC trade in. Also don't know if it's a VL specific issue but we started our most recent run with 30 people and ended with 20 due to crashes, it might be related to other crashes that seem to be happening recently, but man does it suck to see people miss out on completion when they only have 2 attempts per week.
Fair, although staying in a 1k range seems absurdly annoying. I don't play DK though, so not sure. Yeah it was a long shot... would be nice though, even if it has to like repurpose /all chat Strong agree with this As for summons, the more I think about it, the more I'm thinking hardskin is counterproductive to the goal of them. Sure, it means each party needs SE, but SE gives warriors a 15% crit rate. That's still really bad vs mobs, which kind of makes melee useless vs them once it's up...
