General Feedback Thread: Mules and Multi Client

#1: 15k HP NL can be a better seduce class and it's not a problem at all. it still requires active attention from the bishop (either mule or main) because of 1/1. The problem is that seduce mule requires no attention but casting meso guard every 3 mins, and it took away the uniqueness of seducing class and bishop

#2 Bishop mains as a supportive class should have a role in the end game bossing imo.

 

The general protocol in standard HT run was having an active bishop to babysit the designated seduce target throughout the run. Since seduce lasts for only a short duration that can be survived by a heavily washed Thief class, both sed target and bishop were replaced by mules in high tier parties. If seduce lasts longer, nothing really changes for the casual squad because the bishop will just have to babysit for a lil longer than before. However, the veterans can no longer only rely on the tankiness or high avoid aspects of their sed mules. According to the probability, one can only tank so many hits, even with misses, that they will be forced to get an active bishop. Even if one is really good at multi tasking, it'll still take away a good amount of time to control the bishop during sed.

 

Well if you mean casual party as ppl who still bring active seds and bishop(wich stills happens and decently enough) longer sed every 3 mins makes the run longer , bcs theyre losing 1 atacker for a longer period of time. Just pointing that out.

 

Its the same as any mule. Circumventing a boss mechanic or adding a buff to make it a easier for a party to complete what used to be a very difficult boss. Mules in bosses should just go away or make an option to run bosses without mules that yields added rewards. Not adjust or change classes to prevent muling.

 

This nerf/adjustment will hit players who already invested alot into a lvl140 sed mule. Is this what the server wants?
A simple holy shield and their slightly larger mana pool is able to get them out of sed most of the time even meso guard is nerfed to the ground.

I'll focus more on the bishop problem you raised.

- For a casual party,
There will not be much players that can control both a attacker and a bishop mule in this level.
Bishop are required to actively dispel defense buff & clear wyverns. Pretty sure they are wanted in these casual parties. even if a unique casual owns a sed mule/shadowers.
no problem.

-​

- For a mid game party,
Bishop mains nowadays are already inclined to make mules.
Bishop will be able to bring additional sed / cr / se and shine extremely well with everything supportive.
Allowing more of his/her teammate to single client in exchange for apple costs.
no problem.

-​

- For a end game party,
Bishop, higher skill level is usually required. These players usually owns a attacker.

I believe the concerns you have falls under end game party yes?
Look at it from another perspective. you are muling the NL, not the bishop.
The player controlling the bishop is really the one carrying the run, and why are we trying to change that?

What about another scenario ? Invest in a crazy bishop (budget 21/15/15 + perf weapon in liquid) + swiss cheese and you easily do more dmg with your bishop in Horntail when compared to a BM, i don't even want to mention about MMs,
at this point of time, double muling + Bishop is accessible to a trio HT run as well, with the dual attacking meta.

Is there a problem? Not in HT imo.
no problem.



Meanwhile auf is.. Hmm

 

Although I think longer runs are healthier for the server, especially with growing power creep that affects even the casual runners because of increased end game equip supply, if we are trying to keep the length of the runs untouched, the frequency of the seduce can be altered (lowered) but possibly with varying sed timer to make it more challenging. Both sed target and bishop will have to constantly stay awake since they won't be able to anticipate the exact sed moment.

 

Sed mules help heroes and drks run HT since you're the most common sed target and that's ass and with a mule you can focus on DPSing.

if you want to remove seduce muling the only option that makes sense for ht is have everyone but the first to enter a viable sed target so the bishop can always be safe and heal people but that really hurts the lower hp players.

 

Thats an interesting topic, idk if theres a way to find out whats the avrg time that HT used to take 1 year ago, 2 years ago, and how much time it takes now, personally i disagree with statements like "EVERYONE, is growing stronger and faster nowdays" just based on ppl personal friends circle, not saying that ppl are not getting stronger faster nowdyas wich hey, its happening, but i really wonder whats the real increase, also is true that the supply of gears is a big problem, anyways, several thing that would be fun to discuss in another thread/moment. Just to point, this aditional idea seems to be better in adition with your original one, wich actually affected a sector of casual players(believe it or not, theres still several ppl who do 6 man HT with an active bishop and SED and still last around an hour and a half in there)

 

I agree that a change to seduce isn't needed.
I can understand the thought process behind this @Kenny , but I honestly don't think this is a change desired by anyone.
What problem are you trying to solve? Are you trying to encourage main Bishops and sed targets?
That is long gone, the meta evolved and people who have mules use them, people who don't just use active Bishops.
I don't think that battling the mules meta is wise, definitely not in this way.
EDIT: If anything the economy is what's causing people to be forced to mule. People just can't afford to run 6man horntails comfortably anymore, there's just no profit.

 

The meta have shifted drastically the past few years because players have adapted and found what's effective and convenient to them in horntail. As much as I value class diversity, introducing new adjustments in horntail will just hurt the veterans and new players. Class involvement comes from the open mindset of individuals, buffing of a particular class and the up coming contents. tldr: the server have aged and players have evolved

What are the alternatives that you have in mind because

1) Minor adjustment = no point in adjustment
2) HT stronger = same rewards = no point in adjustment

 

Perhaps we can discuss the adjustment for future contents, for example, chaos or hard HT with better reward if implemented.

 

^^ this.

If new/altered mechanics are introduced, implementing them with new, separate content is the way to do it. This allows players who want more challenging, perhaps more solo-client oriented, bosses this option, while not making veterans’ work/mesos invested into mules like sed, etc. obsolete.

Now what the new/changed mechanics will be are up to discussion, but I’d rather have this be the way forward than constantly changing legacy content.

 

Said it before and I'll say it again. This is the way. Only for expeditionary bosses, meaning, boss expeditions that require a parties signing, other than Cwkpq or other PQs.

Now since it's on the table. What should be done and the reward benefit?

Some ideas:

1. Higher drop rate. 1.2x-2x.
2. Strict timer. Much reduced timers to make it more difficult.
3. 100% godly system. Could be blue (godly) or grey (shit) but each item dropped is given the chance at 100% instead of 10%. So 50/50 shot the item is crap or godly.
4. Either no pets allowed, and/or client restriction 1 per person.
5. The boss itself is more difficult. Meaning, more seduces, or cancels/buffs/debuffs, or ad spawn rates.
6. Higher hp requirements? Not too sure about this one, but it's just an idea.

These are just some ideas, not completely sure on adding all of them, but it's a start for testing/discussion purposes.

 

If we're talking about theoretical custom changes in future bosses, give me attacks that kill in 1 hit / threaten strong debuffs / etc but can be dodged (such as by jumping / avoidable like zak pillars or non-hitscan projectiles).

 

Facts, that would be so cool. Great point. Reminds me of dojo panda. He's so much fun to kill if you have no bamboo rains and can't insta kill him.

Imagine if HT tail slam does instant 20k+ damage if not dodged. Stuff like that. Great point dude.

Tank classes would be actual tank classes. HB might be a necessity now. Active bishops are rewarded by massive support and skilled gameplay. Team play. Like it used to be.

 

New content, put in limiters in these new updates might be the way how royals should handle overmuling issue.
Example : Lvl175 minimum entry requirements, time limitations, zombify & potion locks.

Limit the amount of channels for CHT as well, instead of 20 channels, make 4 .

 

Why limit the channels you could do the bosses on by so much? That just sounds like it's meant to make casual parties unable to find a channel.

I wouldn't even be surprised is people afk'd inside HT to hold the channel hostage so that they could secure channels with so few channels.

 

That panda really has a unique and challenging style.
Dodging his attacks feels really good. In my opinion that’s how bosses should be designed. Try multiclienting and dodging his attacks on 2-3 chars. That’s gonna be super challenging if his attacks are deadly. If you can do it, you truly deserve that bigger splitt. The problem with current mules is that it’s not really challenging to keep a CR mule or an bloodwashed SE mule alive. Set powerelixier and feed pet

Also attacks that appear on set platforms might be an idea with some sort of warning so everyone need to get off that Plattform ASAP to survive.

We play a 2D game which does not take advantage of 2D attacks besides panda. Might aswell release dojo panda as an area boss somewhere in Mu Lung and give him a nice rare drop.

I totally understand that this might not be feasible as it requires lots of dev work to code costum attacks, but one may dream:3

 

Future contents should be challenging, class inclusive and have an actual boss raid. There needs to be contents the end game players cannot easily defeat. Chaos Horntail with better rewards is a good approach as I am aware there are deadly mechanics in the boss itself such as damage reflect, potion lock, zombify, random seduce of a party member (active bishop is needed for heals).

Some rewards for Chaos Horntail beside the CHTP (discussable):

*take into account Chaos Horntail shares the same number of daily entries as Normal Horntail*

1. Chaos/White scrolls
2. Mw30 (another way to claim it aside from PB) -maybe
3. Level 110 Overall across the 5 different classes
4. Dragon Weapons
5. Drop pieces to craft a new type of throwing stars (flame throwing stars)
6. Drop pieces to craft an untradeable ring/earring (stats discussable)
7. 30/60% Scrolls

To summarize, challenging mechanics and time restriction for future bosses will make it engaging, class inclusive and have an acutal boss raid.