Even though people might take DPS a bit too seriously, if a weapon sucks compared to another obviously you would pick the better one. I don't see a problem with buffing a weapon to make it more viable, not making it the best one just good enough to be an option. I wouldn't go with a level 10 claw just because it looks better, since it would also mean I would not be able to play efficiently. Probably an extreme example since I don't know the actual damage difference, just that there is more to it than trying to be an elitist for wanting better items.
I think it varies from person to person, and I'm unsure about the statistics behind it (it may very well be that most of the community places huge emphasis on dps; idk the community that well yet). I'm sure some people care about sheer DPS, while others prefer looks, or other things. Personally I value both to a certain degree: for instance I'd go with Night Raven Wing or Timeless Nibleheim over ST in a heartbeat simply because I think they look cool, despite the fact that I'd be slightly loosing in DPS. Comparing a Garnier to something like a Craven really is a bit of an extreme example; my impression so far (correct me if I'm wrong) is that axes are almost on par with swords (maybe about 10% worse DPS wise). Do I think that axes could use a buff? Sure, for the sake of balance; but again, it's a matter of whether the server's vision is to be more .62-like, or more fair and balanced, and I'm not the one in the position to call the shots. I'm also fairly certain that, were these changes to happen, some people would probably complain--it's hard to satisfy everyone . But yeah, I do agree in principle that things like this are unfair. It's just how .62 was though, and I've more-or-less come to accept it.
Pleiades this thread is about BW&Axes weapons, as you have good arguments about Paladins, i think that should be in another thread, otherwise it will be too difficult to stay on topic here. i dont agree that we need to stay accurate to .62, as i have wrote before, this server is not 100% accurate. if we want 100% then we need to have 1x1x1x and no free NX and also restore a few things here and there. dont you think that the "NX" abuse, the HP/MP washing is against all that .62 nostalgic feelings? even so we have it here. to adjust BW&Axes are small in comparison with that. the "balancing" of BW&Axes would not make it feel less nostalgic, how and why? we are trying to make the "life" of a BW&Axe better as they can level up faster with better damage/weapons/skills. this is not about to make swords less attractive. a sword user will not be affected. the only one that will be affected is the users that uses bw or axes. they will notices better damage or they can get better weapons. thats it. if we adjust "brandish" (as we have this as an option) it will only affect the ".62 feelings" on 4th job. up to that nothing changes. and why should that be so bad? i dont understand the logic here. if we add more mastery for BW&Axes, it will not make the weapon do more damage, only more stable. you will not notice it when you train anyway. who keep track of the numbers? if we add more damage for BW&Axes, it will only make the weapon do more damage. it will not affect the feelings. usually you will not notice it much, maybe in a boss run you will not need as many hits. thats it. so all the arguments of destroying the "feelings" or .62 is silly. we already have a customized .62 why not make a few more? the purpose here is not to make BW&Axes better then swords. but as Andreas wrote: "good enough to be an option"
Obtaining loads of NX and doing HP washing were things that were very well possible within the framework of .62, provided that you shelled out enough cash. These types of things are not adjustments or alterations to the core system. What you propose is a change to a more fundamental aspect of .62, and while I've said twice that I would be in favor of such changes, I've noted that this is a change to a core aspect of .62. The reason I brought up the point about paladins is that, while yes I agree that BWs/Axes are worse than Swords, the difference between BWs/Axes and Swords is negligible in comparison to the difference between Paladins and other warriors. In more tangible terms, I'd say that the difference between Axes/Bws and Swords is around 10-15%; whereas the difference between Paladins and Heroes, or Paladins and DKs, is more like 50% or more, while in situations like Zarms and HT, DKs/Heroes can deal 2x/3x as much damage as a Paladin with similar attack. To me, that's a much more alarming and unfair advantage than the comparably measly difference between axes/bws and swords. The best analogy I can offer here is that my mindset is that I would rather focus on the hole in my house's roof, than to work on the leaky faucet, since the former is much more important. As I noted earlier, my intentions were not to hijack the topic, but instead to raise another point of comparison--one which I think would be more poignant than a change to BWs/Axes. And like I've said, I'd personally be in favor of any such changes to axes/Bws anyway.
but you are doing that Pleiades when you bring up Paladins vs other warriors all the time in your arguments. the feedback/suggestion section is full of different threads and im sure we can find all kind of "unimportant" suggestions. that doesn't mean we cant or is bad or we can not discuss it or that we can not implement it. go ahead and create a thread about Paladins. im not against it, contrary i also think that Paladins could have some help here. but right now im more interested in the weapons. so, please dont bring up Paladins unfairness as an argument against the boost of bw/axes. lets focus on the weapons, swords, bw and axes. your argument that it was possible is just false. nobody washed in .62 did you really play .62? i have played since beta and i know the feelings back then and all the aspect of the game. this server is different, BUT theres something that is still .62 and thats the adventure classes! i enjoy that, not all the additional classes that destroyed everything. it is because we are a .62 server (with custom stuff, remember that, its not accurate) we get maple weapons, lots of NX, we get additional maps, etc. so, we want to keep the adventure classes world. not have all the aspect that destroyed maple, like miracle cubes and potential scrolls! mining and more crap. im sure that if nexus continued to add the right stuff, adjust the classes more, change some skills, optimize everything, they would think about the difference between the classes and weapons. but they continued in a different path, a path that we dont like, that is why we are a .62 server. but that doesn't mean we can not fix/adjust things we think need it. i think bw/axes need some adjustment. thats it.
The difference between bw/axe and sword is not negligible. I guarantee a clean stonetooth user will white any boss over my perfect axe. Paladins still have a niche appeal due to elements. DRK obviously have hyper body. There is literally no reason to choose BW or axe over a sword, and that is the problem. Scroll prices were a convincing reason in GMS, but here that is a moot point. I'm sure many people will say "too bad, that's the way v62 is, get over it" and that's fine; I will still continue to use an axe. But we have an easy opportunity here to bring some excitement to (imo) a rather stale class.
I notice that you seem to be getting a bit incensed about my posts for whatever reason, so I'll let this be the last I'll have to say on this subject. Contrary to your assertion, I did indeed play .62--got a WK to 88 in that version and a Marauder to 100 something a few versions after. In fact, I've also played MS during the beta, back when Ant Tunnel 1 was the place to be and anything past 30 was considered "no life." So please don't jump to assertions about me, based off of no evidence... Yes, people did HP wash back then, and there were even guides made in 2008 that detailed what HP washing was. Sure it wasn't common--I never implied anything to that effect--but it was possible and people did indeed do it. So the fact that we can HP wash here, albeit much more easily, isn't a drastic change to the system by any stretch of the imagination. Granted, I realize in retrospect that there were a few things currently in the server which I forgot: the "godly" items system, inclusion of Ulu/Temple of Time, and the way that hired merchants work, which arguably can be said to be significant changes to the fundamental system of .62. So with the precedent already being set, I suppose that this pretty much invalidates the "it's not nostalgic" argument, and that it's not too big a stretch to change axes/BWs. Also I'll reiterate one last time that I've personally been supportive of your idea to buff axes/BWs; I'm not sure what else you want me to say. ...Though I will say that I still stand by my statement that buffing Paladins would be a much more important step to balancing out the game than balancing out Axes/BWs. To answer your question about why I don't make a thread about it, my reason is that I'm fine with how Royals is, and I like .62; despite it having its hefty share of flaws, it is my favorite version of Maple and I am highly satisfied with how Royals currently. The only reason I'd be making a suggestion/feedback thread in the near future would be due to bugs or things not working as described. Not to mention that I never plan on making a Paladin since I personally find their playstyle boring as hell anyway (the elemental charge system had so much potential, yet the way it was implemented leaves so much to be desired).
Considering pallys are the only class that uses blunt weps. Just buff the pally blunt wep skill damage ther it is fixed no need to change blunt weapons overall. I have one character that is over level 100 that is my pally. I am a blunt weapon user because i personally prefer blunt weapons. I do not care if my damage is lower because of my choice in play style but what i do care about is wanting to make changes that are not needed to the game. If we chose to to Bw or axe or polearm in a spearmans point of view it is out choice. I noticed ""Baka"Kind of a ironic name since it means idiot" brought up that bowman can go crossbow or bow well actually no if you go crossbow you are making your self weaker since the class is weaker so if anything it is not a viable option by your logic. People play what they want to play because they find it more fun there is no need to buff something just because you think it needs to be buffed.
Marksmen and BM are completely different classes with different skillsets. There are reasons to choose one over the other. There are also reasons one may want to play a pally rather than a hero. Polearm is inferior to spear, but at least they have unique attack skills. There is no reason to choose a BW/axe over a sword since they are the same class with the same exact skills. They were supposed to deal more damage at the expense of speed, but that isn't even true. The attack formulas are completely cucked. Obviously Wizet dropped the ball on this one but we can still fix it.
Yes it can be fixed but the weapon it self does not need to be changed. Change the skills to compensate not a weapon.
_ I agree with Manoh, changing the skills damage is much more easier and still reached the goal. To my knowledge, Axes/Blunts are supposes to give "unstable" damages so they tend to have a little lower damage multiplier but that doesn't mean they are actually "weaker" than Swords. _ On the other note, I also agree that Axes/ Blunts need a buff but as Goofy pointed out that "the difference between those are not negligible", I simply believe making the "Crushed Skull" and other Axe weapons easier to obtained will solves most of the problem. _ I also have some question about 1h-sword + shield and 2h-hand sword (how many att does a shield + 1-hand sword need to have to "equally" compared as strong as 2 hand) and since that's irrelevant on this post, if anyone have an answer please leave me a message thank u.
I don't intend to promote my thread on the matter, but if you look there (Referencing those who did the math, and checked it myself) you'd be wrong; Axes & Blunt Weapons are quite literally weaker on overall average than Swords, and slower. https://royals.ms/forum/threads/the-balancing-of-axes-blunt-weapons-data-included.53212/ Changing the skills is also not any solution... It's not the root of the problem. In addition the end-game attacking skills for Heroes and Paladins are usable for both of their types of weapons, if you changed those Swords would still be at the same exact advantage. The solution is to change the damn weapon multipliers. Make the Swinging Multiplier for Axes and Blunt Weapons stronger to make up for their much bigger loss in their Stab Multiplier. All you gotta do is go into the files, and change 4 (Possibly just 2) numbers. Boom, it's fixed.
Actually changing the damage multiplier is not easy and could even be impossible. The damage is calculated by the client and then sent to the server, therefore it would require a client edit. In my opinion I feel that changing the speed of all blunt weapons and axes by -1 could be more of an appropriate solution for balancing, and I am surprised that nobody has mentioned changing weapon speeds (unless I've missed it), although I guess that goes against the reasoning that these weapons are supposed to deal more damage at the expense of speed.
I think changing the speed will work, since people are mostly worried about DPS. So, I can understand what you mean that these weapons are supposed to be slow, heavy hitters, but I think boosting the speed by 1 won't be enough to make it feel completely out of place.
I did suggest speed changes for axes (and did the math on how they would relate to swords if it were done) almost a year ago. If anyone wants to see it, that post is Here and the updates to it when mike informed me how brandish worked are two posts down from there. I posted from the viewpoint that end game is the only place this kind of thing really matters, so I didn't consider changing low level axes, but the trend would probably be about the same (axes generally between 5 and 15% worse at any given level, depending on 1h or 2h.) if you're concerned about balancing, and can't change multipliers or skills, speed is really the only variable you CAN change. If you try to buff attack, you would need to buff a 2h axe to approximately 220 atk scrolled to equal a ST at endgame. In their current state, the vast majority of axes (I'm not sure about BW, but I would guess it's similar) are between 40% and 66% as efficient as swords. In most cases you're better off using a clean Stonetooth than you are any sort of axe, even if you have to have very high dex to do it.
Hah! Even though I have no idea what any of that would mean, I always scoff at the word "Impossible". Nexon has made changes to the multipliers before (Or at least completely remodeled it), you know when the time they made Magic ATT more like Weapon ATT, and also basically made accuracy useless. This is also when they got rid of the Stab Multiplier for Axes & BW's, and made all animations depend on the Swing one. But Nexon's methods I'm sure it's not a law of the universe that you can't ever change it. What would it actually take to directly change the multipliers? What are the complications ran into when trying? Is the new source that's still being developed not an opportunity to do this? Sure it may be a lot of effort, but if there's going to be any solution to the issue that's generated 5 threads, it only feels right to me to go to the root of the problem and make Axes & Blunt Weapons how they were intended to be: Crappy with Stabbing, slow, but all made up in their extra damage with Swings.
He explained this... There's a difference between the source code and the client, and the client is virtually un editable.
And again, I'm asking that if there is any way possible, how much trouble would it be? You say virtually, meaning nearly almost, but it still is.
If it is virtually impossible, I would assume it is impossible or not worth doing as it would be incredibly difficult. I think that the word impossible kinda speaks for itself.
