Well yes, it's another case of "just use the time to get money and wash more instead". I think we're hogging the thread and going in circles so I'll shut up now I think I made my point.
If your point was 'skip progression just be a robot and sell leech so you can wash your bm/mm' then it was loud and clear. /rant
Scarga quests too! Idk how many that is Also like 3 for toad to skip the jq, 3ish for HT (elixir, killing, egg, maybe a 4th/5th of just talking to NPCs to unlock elixir/egg?), job quests almost certainly didn't include quests for skills because there's some lengthy ones. Did lhc include rose garden/vl preq too? That's also completely ignoring the fact that if you don't wash, you don't have to leech and can grind for exp, which often gets you many more quests done. That being said, I do think an extra 1-2k cap increase on Reuel would help and I wouldn't be opposed to it - they still have to put in the effort and grind the quests.
I was very strict on the 128 number so there are at least 20 more FREE quests that can be added to that list
If it's your second character, no, you're not obligated to use all your mesos on washing. You're also not obligated to make a second character right away, of course preparations are made beforehand. Surely 2 months of RG & HT would garner enough funds for washing a new character, or even semi wash. Like stated before, it's a quest meant for new players / first characters, making subsequent characters unwashed is your choice, the quest doesn't accommodate all. Additional info, the Reuel quest was changed in update #72 to be infinitely repeatable until the point where the user has enough base HP to reach at least 9500 base HP by level 175 (thresholds differ between classes), from previously only daily. https://royals.ms/forum/threads/update-72-17-05-2021.190847/ It is further increased from an average of 15 hp per quest to 35 hp per quest in update #75 https://royals.ms/forum/threads/update-75-19-11-2021.198181/ The quest is at a very healthy state already, the devs had made significant improvement to it, most players that have done it since the past can agree it's in a good spot, especially after the addition of Olaf's assignment and the new variety of quests from Reuel.
I think the first post is exaggerating a few things, but I mostly agree with it. Here are some numbers for you, along with approximate times from old screenshots. I once collected over 5000 HP in Reuel potions. I think I started around level 140 (around summer 2021) and ended April 2022 at level 166. Reuel was buffed in-between but it still took almost a year to get all of these. And it still only got my NL to 12.7k. Later that year, when VL was released, I got to level 176, had about 15.4k HP, and had a really hard time with VL since I was still within OHKO range (screaming for HB didn't always work). Olaf quests caused my HP to skyrocket and now I have over 20k without really touching Reuel's quests anymore. Things are better now, but I understand how much effort it takes to get that much HP (and it still wasn't enough). I wouldn't want anyone else to go through what I did. It was not fun, but I had to do it if I wanted to experience the endgame. Spoiler Anyone who says "HP washing is optional" does not understand that there are only two kinds of attacks in this game: those that kill you in one hit and those that don't. With power elixirs, potions working instantly with no cooldown, and everyone having autopot, this can be the only possible state. There is no dodging for most classes, and some attacks hit the entire screen anyway. There is no gitting gud when the gameplay for almost every class boils down to "hold your attack key for half an hour and recast buffs every few minutes while autopot does the rest". These HP discussions are always going to pop up every once in a while because this game is fundamentally not skill-based and you can't compensate for low health with high skill here. But maybe that's for another thread.
Expecting to be able to do ALL endgame content with no investment is unrealistic. People complaining that they can't possibly finish the Olaf quests are just not ready for endgame bosses. MMORPG games aren't theme park rides where everyone hops in and has the same experience, the whole point is that you have to put in the time.
I think adding hp elixirs/tonics as optional rewards to events is a good idea. for players really trying to passively generate additional HP while also participating in the fun, or for people that aren't interested in any of the other rewards to have something practical to exchange for example, the revent xmas event, where you turn in x amount of event drops to Santa for the spirits, there's a bunch of nx/chairs and junk to choose from. would be great if hp elixirs were on there as well for a practical reward or folks who are trying extra hard for HP. +25 HP for event potions, +100 HP for a token exchange potion for 100 tokens. Maybe limit how many you can get in certain time periods (example, 4x +25 HP potions per event, 1x 100 hp token potion per month The reality for some people, they want to play the game, and not necessarily always feel they have do specific tasks or quests to get hp. Extra additional organic way via normal participation that will additionally reward them with HP is good for the burn out. above examples: token exchange tokens rewarded for boss expeditions optional event potions voting streak rewards daily boss kill steak rewards additional dojo point rewards (life after, or between black belt(s), +15 HP and +1 fame every 20 quests completed, etc +150 HP for finishing the final quest in a boss pre-quest line (since doing these pre-quests are pointless if you can't even run in the boss fight) adding HP stimulators. the stims gives bosshunter gear additional hp stats when crafted an HP bonus if the whole bosshunter set is equipped (since you're sacrficing using other. Add a bosshunter cape or ring or shoulder pad with hp Ruel streak rewards (extra tonic/elixir after 10. like how after 10 dinner quests you get the versal orb, get a fixed +50 hp elixir
It's a bit worrying that Becca liked your comment since it's a misunderstanding and Becca will help decide the balance on this with this notion. Whether one is do HP washing or HP questing, there's clear investment being involved. Even if some people complain that they don't feel to finish Olaf, they're still doing it and other players are doing it as well. So this is a non-issue. --- Can we really say that the quest is in a healthy state? Is this based on one's experience of grinding the Reuel questline for several months in addition to Olaf + gathering HP equips? Was the newbie/average players talked to on the state of the quest (and not top/veteran players)? Or was it just personal observation of players coming through the game the past couple months? I don't mean for you to answer this. It's just quick questions that popped up when I read your comment. I remember years before talking to Staff at a in-game balance discussion and I talked about Dojo. Staff told me that Dojo was in a good state and didn't need changes even after the suggestions made to make Dojo better. Oddly enough, down the line after a change of some Staff members, Staff later re-organized the point distribution on the PQ, buffed the HP on Belt, tweaked the mobs for Papulatus, and allowed for Mounts to be used. Dojo probably wasn't truly in a good state since it got those changes. Aspects of the game can still be improved. There's two things to Reuels, the playtime (actual time working on the quest to gain HP) and world time (delay or constraint to wait each day for months to access the quest). Simple way of viewing OP's suggestion is that OP wants to reduce the world time of grinding Reuels via increasing the cap. The playtime involved is unchanged. How anyone views how easy/hard Reuel is or doing Olaf or strapping a bunch of HP equips doesn't matter and is off-topic to OP's main point. It's just agreeing or disagreeing about reducing the world time to gain the HP through the questline. If the Game Balancers/Staff are looking at this, then they need to question whether they'd want to reduce the world time involved. It needs to be weighed if Staff would prefer people grinding daily to encourage daily logins and thus have constant population count long-term or allow players to reach their goals slightly sooner and risk them not logging as much in the future.
Are Staff not allowed to like things now? You kinda start to wonder why some people on Staff don't want to comment or say anything on feedback threads because any kind of action we do whether its liking someone's comment, or responding to a controversial topic is scrutinized no matter what is said/liked. (and then funnily enough those same people ask why nobody on Staff is participating in any discussions.) Which is what just happened right now with your comment-- saying how it's worrisome because a Staff member liked something that goes against your opinion, and oh no she's a part of the balancing team! She's going to personally shut down any kind of discussion whatsoever and her word is obviously the final say, despite the fact that there are other Staff members on the team who also contribute to the discussion and also vote yes/no to changes proposed by the community too! /s. I'll go back and like the other comments I wanted to like, but didn't because I was overthinking and thought somebody would do just exactly this if I liked them so I didn't bother. Quick edit: I know people view us in a different light and when they see us like and comment stuff they take that to heart because of our title(s), but that also doesn't mean we aren't capable of having rational discussions and coming to conclusions/agreements when we decide to make changes on whatever it may be. Saying you're worried because of my position and what I liked is a little bit extreme, I am capable of using rational thinking and applying that to discussing game-changing matters within Staff there's also other Staff members who get an equal say and also discuss these changes too. It's not just one person making the decisions. --- I don't think anything major should be adjusted for Reuel's hp quests because we already have a plethora of ways to gain extra hp to help push you a little bit further to your goals and to help make ends meet. https://royals.ms/forum/threads/zan...-guide-is-hp-washing-optional-in-2024.227532/ I agree with the statement made because expecting to have access to all endgame content with little to no investment IS a bit unrealistic. Yes, it requires people to put in some effort because that's usually how progression works in other games. Yes, some things could be adjusted like perhaps raising the repeatable limit by maybe 1-2k, and we have made numerous improvements to Reuel's hp quest since it was released. It is in a pretty healthy spot right now aside from minor adjustments such as looking into raising the unlimited cap by a little bit, maybe some droprate balancing, etc. Spoiler: hp quest context for my characters Context: I have a shad and bm (working on sair) I never washed and they are between 21-22k hp. I completed the unlimited hp quest back when it was still 10/20 hp and it took me about 2 weeks, maybe 2 and a half, on my bm, and I think 2-3 days on my shad to reach the daily cap, I can't remember the approx. time but it was definitely less than a week because this was back in 2021. I don't recall when I finished doing the quests, but I stopped when I was around ~17-18k on both and I did the hp quest daily for about 4-6 months to get there after the changes to the elixirs, then I did Olaf when that came out and I occasionally do the hp quest when I remember to. vl/auf aren't really casual bosses, vl requires at least 12 or more people to clear and most of the people I run with are either 200 or close to it. I don't even recall if my group ever had a 175 person in our run, maybe we did I'm sure one of them will let me know lol but I think the lowest I've seen was maybe 180s or mid 180s. I'm sure there are some that do it right at 175 but those people are also funded enough to hp wash to speed up the process, or they put in the time to reach that by doing the hp quests. As for auf, it's considered end game based on the rewards like auf helm for example, but I also don't think it's that much of a problem that it requires a little bit more time to be put into getting those alt characters ready to be able to do those two bosses when you have access to everything else almost immediately. Yes, you can easily achieve level 200 in 3-4 months, but I don't think that means every boss should be ready to go the second you hit the appropriate level to do them. Having a couple of bosses like that promotes people to want to hp wash, or want to finish the hp quests so that way they can do them. I don't think the time should be sped up to achieve our hp goals otherwise it could phase out hp washing entirely, and while the general consensus is hp washing = bad its also healthy for new players looking to make mesos and don't want to gacha, hp washing speeds up the process for those who are funded and don't care about mesos but don't have the time to do hp quests, there is some balance to keeping both at a healthy level. I think the balance is in an okay spot for now. I'm not saying there's no more room for improvement, it's perfect and pristine leave it alone! (/s) I am open to discussion on this topic both from Staff and the community, but right now in my own opinion as a player and as somebody who has done this quest numerous times for multiple characters I don't think it's that much of a big deal as what it's being made out to be.
When designing and/or balancing the alternative ways of hp gain, we hope to allow player to enjoy the game without going through hp washing. Based on my observation, occasional talk in-games, and my personal experience, I believe we have achieved this goal. I would also like to make a few points: Reaching the minimum level requirement does not mean one is prepared for the boss. Zak has a level requirement of lv50 but it doesn’t mean you should do zak right away, nor does it mean you will have enough hp for it. The same concept applies to other bosses like shao, HT, VL, etc. Similar to any other MMORPG or RPG, if you can’t beat the boss, come back again with better gear and/or higher level, and/or more people. Touch damage does not equal to the amount of hp requirement. A straightforward example is core blaze; it has a touch damage of 28k or more, but it doesn’t mean you need 28k hp to defeat it. Same principle applies to slightly different case of Auf. There are different way of avoiding the high touch damage (hamstring/melee map control/hero will). Even if you made a mistake, there are bishop’s resurrection.
Disagreeing with you is not a misunderstanding. People can disagree with you because they view things differently to how you do
I wasn't saying that you or staff can't like anyone's post. If you reread my comment, I stated: "There's two things to Reuels, the playtime (actual time working on the quest to gain HP) and world time (delay or constraint to wait each day for months to access the quest). Simple way of viewing OP's suggestion is that OP wants to reduce the world time of grinding Reuels via increasing the cap. The playtime involved is unchanged. How anyone views how easy/hard Reuel is or doing Olaf or strapping a bunch of HP equips doesn't matter and is off-topic to OP's main point. It's just agreeing or disagreeing about reducing the world time to gain the HP through the questline." The reason I brought it up, is that in my opinion, it looks like you're in agreement with a post that seems to discredit the people that do work hard and invest into their chars. So Staff doesn't want to participate in discussions on the feedback forum because they're scared and don't want criticism? Okay.... But do you and Staff realize that criticism is part of the Game process right? You need dissenting thoughts to eventually come to a better outcome. If you're only saving thoughts for the same few people, then the discussion will be limited regardless. Leaving behind your emotions, being objective, and concise when posting with the general public isn't that difficult. I understand where you're coming from. From my personal time doing Reuels and watching & helping people, the questline seems decent in the short-term. However, mid~long-term and doing basic math, Reuel is very underwhelming and should be re-evaluated.
Maybe just call Reuel Sisyphus; it pretty much nails how it feels to deal with him. I never washed so... I know
Let's set a baseline to discuss. I suggest that we take level 180 for it because it is the same level the bosses you mentioned are and you were able to get everything out of Olaf at this point. Getting from level 135 to 180 takes 9.675.888.206 exp. With daily shao+2x Krex that's roughly 65 days. As someone whos wants to get most out of the unlimited version of Reuels i guess you can reach the cap in a couple of days. For the ease of the discussion I will set ~2 weeks for that. That leaves you with ~50 out of the 65 days where Reuels is only available once a day. Let's also take the Archer class to discuss this, because its the most painful one to wash. Quick overview of HP and Gears without loosing on damage 9.500 HP threshold + 110 HP from level ups 175 to 180 + 500 HP from Water from the Spring of Youth Questline + 3.000 HP from Adventuer's Assignment + 120 HP from Blackfist Cloack + 300 HP from MoN + 150 HP from Ephenia‘s Ring + 100 HP from Ifia‘s Ring + 200 HP from Master Adventurer Medal + 300 HP from Blue Belt (should be 500 from Black to be honset) + 300 HP from Pet Equips + 1.750 HP from 50 days Reuels = 16.030 HP This doesn't include any event items and equips that are hard to get like Legendary Collector Medal. So if you ask me reaching 16k in 2~3 months playtime doesnt seem to be impossible with the current HP washing alternatives available. I agree that 18 or 19k is defenitly harder! However Auf Haven doesn't require 19k to run consistently. I just advice 19k because it allows you to basically play braindead and i don't want people to be mad they "only" got to 16k and realize 19k has an easier time in auf. Even 10k can run if they are ranged and carefull. Although i'd say that's a bit too much risk to run consistently. Spoiler: From my bossing guide regarding HP in Auf Haven Touch: up to 16k Slash Attack: up to 9,8k + Stun (or touch damage if you are too close) Energy Ball Attack: up to 9,5k + Dispel Genesis Attack: up to 9,5k Wing attack: low damage, 5k-ish? The Seduce duration is 5 seconds. This leads me to the following HP tiers: 1. 10k Hp You can survive all attacks individually, but not touch. You should always stay as far away as possible to dodge touch damage during slash attack. So this is more of a ranged character thing + shads because of meso guard (care for dispel tho). 2 energy ball attacks during SED can kill you with no counter play if your will is down. When you get the first energy ball damage right after SED happens immediately will out and pot. Having HB would bring you to tier 2. 2. 16k HP You can survive all attacks individually including touch damage. 2 energy ball attacks during SED can kill you with no counter play if your will is down. When you get the first energy ball damage right after SED happens immediately will out and pot. Having HB would bring you to tier 4. 3. 19k HP (my recommendation) You can also survive 2 energy ball attacks during SED. It’s rare, but it happens. Having HB would bring you to tier 5. 4. 25,5k HP You can also survive touch damage + 1 energy ball attack during SED. This is worth to consider if you are a melee. Having HB would bring you to tier 5. 5. 30k HP Flex Note that the Summened Auf Havens also have a ranged attack which does a little less then Auf Havens Energy Ball Attack. So getting hit by this + Auf Havens Energy ball attack is also a thing. Having Heroes Will is going to make your life better! Regarding Von Leon i agree that running below the 17,5k isn't really ideal. So that would be 6 weeks extra of doing the daily HP quest or leveling a bit more to reduce the gap. Generally i don’t t really like to rely on HB and HB should only make things easier but in the case of Von Leon it might really be a viable option, because timing the dispel in VL isn't hard. There are no attacks that you can't track that dispel you. It is only a skill with a preset cooldown. Von Leon requires communication anyways. Your DK buddy might get jailed sometimes but it's not the end of the world to play safe until they are back. This doesn't mean i am strictly against raising the thresholds of Reuels. In fact i don't like the threshold concept as a whole. I would've prefered it was a maximum HP cap you get from the quest before it turns daily no matter your current HP or MP or potential HP by 175. The current threshold system is too complicated. I would prefer it to be 100 HP Quest completions without a limitation and daily from 101 onwards. That way it also synergizes with "traditional HP washing" and you can combine both however you like without loosing somewhere. On top of that lowering the damage of Von Leon to ~16k to be more in line with Toad and Auf Haven is an option too. Could even adjust Auf Haven's Magic Ball attack from 9.5k to 8k and make her auto aggro instead to keep or kind of increase the difficulty. All of this is just my personal pov to keep discussing. It doesn't reflect or hint towards what staff will do. If you think finishing an Adventurers Assignment Quest without having the full HP reward beforehand let me know which one so we can take a closer look at that together too.
100% agree with this. It's whack that for new unfunded (ranged) chars leveling with some int equips might be a bad thing since they prefer to do Reuel's and get the hp directly...
From experience, it's really not viable. DKs are busy enough trying to zerk and not die usually, and that combined with jail/deaths/DCs makes relying on HB a pretty bad idea. This would probably be the better solution, and would also make zerking a bit easier, which I'm not convinced is a bad thing. Auf damage is probably fine where it is (except from a zerk standpoint maybe, but you'd have to ask a DK main how to fix that), especially with will 10 (I get that it's expensive and all but it's still an option, and quite nice in VL too)
if i'm understanding the overly complicated nature of the natural v washing relationship gain, then i agree this is bogus. if i want to do both, it shouldn't be harder. this
