Meso Guard

Thanks, Becca. Truthfully, it was unfair for me to ask you what the counterargument was, seeing as we are on the same side and I couldn't expect you to come up with a counterargument when I couldn't come up with one myself. I was putting you on the spot and I'm sorry.

It looks like allowing potting during dark sight will be the main proposal going forwards, and that's a change I would be more than happy with. Although some people are suggesting that pet autoHP should still fail during Dark Sight as a "balancing" measure, and that would still leave shadowers as the #1 class most affected by 1/1 attacks, so I don't see how that's balanced in any way. Just my 2 cents on something that others have brought up.

 

Well, if pets work, Dark sight SED mule will become a thing. HT leg and tail will no longer be a concern. Also NL/SHAD will be able to afk for the duration of dark sight in Auf as they won't touch Auf on SED. Tbh one of the other bacon already said this.

 

To your credit, this is a valid point. If this is deemed unbalanced (though I think it's fine given that 1/1 remains a threat) I see two ways around this:
1. Horntail's seduce also dispels dark sight
2. Horntail's seduce ignores players that are in dark sight and moves onto the next seduce target

 

lol you guys could just revert the change and there won't be a need to tweak or discuss anything.

the nerf to meso guard was to (if im not mistaken),
1 - discourage muling and encourage active sed/bs (didnt work, people stil bringing their sed/bs mules to suicide res them)

2 - increase the difficulty of shadowers by adding some risk? (understandable since this is washroyals, but what about those poor unwashed shads )

3 - to utilize sed mechanic for future content? (pretty poor bandaid solution imo, there's probably better ways to do that than to nerf a class like that)



feels like the meso guard change was really unnecessary to begin with and with all these talk on implementing more unnecessary changes just to make the change work, it seems more and more like a slippery slope. shads relying on their meso guard to do their combo safely in DS has been part of their class core identity since i was a beansprout and idk why change that

 

"Slippery slope" is literally a fallacious argument that people only use when they are losing. (Search it up.) Saying that the current state of affairs is fine because it's the way it's always been done is also a fallacious argument. You used two logical fallacies in the same paragraph. I know that we are both arguing towards an outcome that we would at least be OK with, but I can't ignore this.

I don't see a reason why we should be okay with shadowers being at 50% HP in dark sight after a 1/1, when any other class would be at 100% HP after a 1/1 because their autopot actually works. I know it doesn't concern most people in a server where HP washing is so pervasive, but if you were unwashed and trapped in dark sight at 50% HP you'd be pissing your pants.

Just because you're accustomed to the terrible mechanics that the game forces you to deal with doesn't mean that other people are wrong to ask for something better. That's called gatekeeping.

 

i'm only gonna reply to this segment since you're clearly more interested in the philosophies of arguments in the other segments of your post.

it isn't a fair statement when you compare shadowers to other classes like that, they're completely different classes with very different playstyle. it's almost identical to saying "i don't see a reason why we should be okay with drks being below 50% HP just to do their optimal dps, when any other class could do that at 100% HP". So... change zerk hp requirement to 100%?

Royals have implemented several hp gaining methods other than APR washing, so with enough dedication, an unwashed shadower can pretty much do any boss with relative ease especially with meso guard pre nerf.

 

Yes, the causal slippery slope is a fallacious argument, but I don't think this argument is relevant here. The slippery slope is fallacious where it attempts to mistakenly imply causation from a "first step" to severe unconnected consequences, but I don't actually think that @lxlx is trying to make this argument in the first place. They're simply stating the observation that the MG change has now led to discussion on further contentious(?) changes (basically the current discussion in this thread) which would now be required in order to support the initial change. The causation is literally there in black and white. Labelling it as a "slippery slope" might have been a bit misleading, but considering the content of their argument, I don't actually think @lxlx is attempting to appeal to the "slippery slope" that you have in mind.

Yes, appealing to precedent/tradition is also a fallacious argument, but again, I don't see this as relevant either. Considering the content of @lxlx 's argument, I don't think they are arguing to blindly keep things unchanged for the sake of it - rather, I get the impression that they are appealing to inherent class identity and game design. This is particularly relevant given that this discussion is taking place within the context of a "nostalgic" server which aims to emulate core tenets of the original game. So I don't really see the argument as "we should keep MG unchanged simply because it's always been like this", but more of "we should keep MG unchanged because this is in line with how Shadower identity/gameplay was deliberately designed and intended". The difference is subtle, but in my opinion, the latter is more informed/meaningful.

I don't necessarily agree/disagree with either of your perspectives, and I think the ongoing discussion is progressive and definitely good to have. Just wanted to clear up the (perceived) misunderstandings above and I hope this helps to move the conversation forward. Also @lxlx please feel free to correct me if I misinterpreted what you were trying to convey.

 

The difference between this situation and Berserk is that Berserk is explicitly designed to work that way. Any aspiring Dark Knight can read the skill description of Berserk on bbb.hidden-street, and it accurately describes exactly what it does. Everyone knows that DKs must zerk, and for many people it's the reason why they don't play DK. Dark Knights are an unpopular class (and I can't really say that they're in a good place right now) but at least every Dark Knight is getting what they signed up for.

However, the interaction between Dark Sight and autoHP is not obvious to anyone who hasn't experienced it. I'm pretty sure that it was not deliberately designed to work that way, but it ended up like that because the original developers rarely think things through. This is an oversight, not a part of the shadower's "core identity". The previous version of Buccaneer's Super Transformation with CD was arguably more of a core class identity than this.

It's convenient that Meso Guard, 1/1 attacks, and Dark Sight combined a bunch of oversights in a way that they partially canceled each other out, resulting in an experience that was tolerable enough to remain unchanged for a long time. But shadowers still have to put up with shit that other classes don't have to deal with, and unlike DKs it's not like they're guaranteed to know this in advance. In fact, the first shadower guide on this forum doesn't mention it at all, and the more recent guide only mentions it in a footnote that was added in a later edit. Class core identity, my foot.

 

On the contrary, i believe autopot was intended to not work in DS, just like how you can't manually pot or use skills while in ds. It's def not coincidental that the one and only skill that you are able to cast while in DS turns out to be a skill from shadower skill set (assasinate), so i'm pretty certain the synergies and interactions between shad skills & pots have been well thought out.

I don't know but this is sounding more like a personal issue rather than a class issue. Not everything has to be written out, when you play a class, one of the fun aspects of it is to learn and master your class through your own personal playing experience. There's no guide telling drk players what hp alert % should they set, how to zerk at the various bosses, etc. Another example would be dismounting boat to dodge damage by corsairs. It was never officially written anywhere, people just learnt to do it through playing and its now the most iconic aspect about playing a sair.

Thank you for helping me articulate what i was trying to say! This is very spot-on.


I never understood the nerfing of meso guard just to amplify the threat of 1/1 for shadowers when there is already an in-game boss mechanic that does this (dispels).

 

You can't just lump potions and skills together like that. Everyone can agree that the majority of skills should not work in Dark Sight for obvious reasons, but there's nothing wrong with having potions work in DS while skills do not, just like how there's nothing wrong with having potions work when mounted while skills do not. Do you see anyone arguing that potions shouldn't work while mounted because skills don't work while mounted? No, because that's a terrible argument.

And I know that Monster Rider and Dark Sight do different things, but when you're fighting a stationary boss that spams magic attacks, they might as well be the same.

It literally does. From Plenty's guide:

But never mind that, it's not important. I can see that your argument is that the darksight/potion interaction is both intentional and iconic, and my argument is the opposite of that. Is it intentional? Unfortunately we have no way of knowing, but given that Dark Sight is designed to be used in 1st job when monster magic attacks don't exist (and is therefore severely outdated in 4th job when practically every monster has a magic attack), I have my doubts and I hope you can see why. Also, don't forget that even if it is intentional, that doesn't mean that it isn't stupid. MapleStory copies "10" to your clipboard if you type anything other than a number into the meso drop menu. This is both intentional and stupid. Wolf Spiders sometimes receive several frames of invincibility at completely random intervals. This is also both intentional and stupid. It's never a good idea to have too much faith in MapleStory's original design. Remember that this server has reverted some of the original developers' deliberate design choices and ended up better for it.

But is the interaction iconic? Not iconic enough for either of the shadower guides to draw much attention to it, apparently. Meanwhile, every DK guide talks extensively about zerking, and every corsair guide talks about dismounting. Which is fair because DKs have to pay attention to their HP at all times, and sairs have to pay attention to boss attack animations at all times. But for shads, this isn't a core mechanic that their bossing strategy revolves around; it's more like being subjected to random vibe checks. Having autopot randomly fail while executing an assassinate combo sounds about as iconic as having Piercing Arrow randomly fail if you release the attack button right when you take knockback. I play a MM and I got used to the limitations of Piercing Arrow, but you don't see me arguing that it should have remained the way it was because it was "iconic" or anything. In fact, I don't see how this situation is any different from the situation we had with Piercing Arrow, other than the fact that most people have a lot more pity for MM than for shads.

 

That's why SED mechanic was introduced, it forces players to move in direction, and why players prioritize taking down body parts like leg and tail in HT, why people attack from a specific direction/position at certain bosses, why people prep DS and time sed, etc etc.

This is not true, my argument is that meso guard blocking 1/1 is one of the iconic factor of shadowers and it should be the main safety feature of shadowers, not autopot. Due to that, autopot working in DS wouldn't really be needed. Maybe autopot deserves to work while in DS form, but the fact that this change is now talked about ONLY AFTER the meso guard nerf shows that this is discussed not for the QOL benefits it provides, but rather, just a means to justify the meso guard nerf, and i don't know if that's the right approach to go about discussing and balancing stuff in the game. It has been brought up before in the past as you can see from https://royals.ms/forum/threads/pet-auto-hp-while-in-dark-sight.135647/, and it just got swept under the rug. But now suddenly, its a priority sort of thing after the meso guard nerf? like cmon...

Also, since i'm on the topic about controversial change, i noticed a segment of my earlier post got edited out by a moderator when i made a subtle reference to a previous controversial change that happened awhile back. Was it irrelevant to the discussion? Considering the fact that this thread was created to address a controversial change, I guess it's down to the interpretation of the reader, personally i felt this thread is like a dejavu of the aforementioned reference. Just find that it's in pretty poor taste to edit out my posts without telling me anything about it.

 

It wasn't a priority for me back then because I didn't have a shadower. Now I do. We're discussing it now because I'm very loud when it comes to this kind of thing.

I should apologize for the confusion; I have no desire to "justify" the MG nerf with what I'm suggesting. As long as I can autopot in DS, I don't care if the MG nerf is reverted or not. So the fact that I've been posting in this thread might have been misleading. Sorry. We can continue in a different thread if you'd like. I think it was dumb that the thread you mentioned got swept under the rug; it deserved a lot more attention than it got.

Based on my understanding, here are the outcomes we want:

Baconfry: allow potions to work in dark sight, don't care about MG nerf being reverted

lxlx: revert MG nerf, don't care about potions working in dark sight

So we would both be satisfied if MG blocks 1/1 and potions work in dark sight? I don't see anything wrong with this.

I don't like the idea of shadowers relying on MG instead of autopot. Every other class can just autopot through 1/1 attacks, but shadowers have a very small chance to be stuck at 1 HP (formerly 50% HP) after a 1/1 attack, and that doesn't sound like an iconic feature, it just sounds like a frustrating downside.

 

Honestly it just make more sense to revert the change, it's something we are familiar with, it was never a contention of a balance issue by the community, and I'm sure there are some unforeseen glitches that could arise from allowing to pot in darksite

 

People have complained about it before. One of those threads is linked on this very page.

This is an incredibly unproductive argument. Every single feedback thread in this forum asks for the game to be modified in some way. Yes, modifying the game might cause glitches. But we do it anyways because progress is more important than avoiding short-term glitches, and changes are always tested before they go live so I have no idea what the heck you're so scared of.

 

then this post its for buff mules...? now pala and shads mules, amazing.
my idea was make a new shad, but all this post like this make me disgusting...
only looks ppl can boss whit NL or BM and rest mules...

Make the experience good for new players and ppl who wanna take the job not thinking about mules.
its normal nowadays dont see any bish main, then make the si mules, then the se mules, and now shad and pala?
wow

 

Don't see it, feel free to link it.

Logistically it makes more sense to revert a change that caused a neutral result rather than try to accommodate a result that had unforeseen consequence(s); IE unable to heal in dark site. Now we are forcing the game to heal in dark site which could have as strong of a glitch as buff potions being used in Dark site *that don't expire or something. The consequences aren't exactly hard to work out, but considering they put a change through that was so obvious regarding potions and dark site interaction, I don't really have faith they'll be able to test out the more creative problems it could cause, let alone the obvious ones.

Progression only makes sense when it balances something or makes something more effective. Meso guard blocking a 1/1 mechanic doesn't really change the gameplay for anyone, if your change goes through as requested, what difference does it honestly make? You're better off arguing shadowers make more money because they can save on potions more effectively than any class with this glitch. Revert the change and put your time into something that affects the meta is my opinion on the subject, definitely not 'unproductive'; what is unproductive is forcing the game to accommodate a change that is unnecessary to begin with.

 

Let's not lose sight of the big picture here. This has basically turned into an argument between those who think it's fine for shadowers to experience random autopot failures while attacking, and those who do not. And when your best argument against allowing autopot in dark sight consists of unsubstantiated claims that it would cause glitches and eat up too much development time, then I'm sorry, but you've already lost. I see no reason why allowing pots in DS would cause game-breaking glitches when allowing pots in Monster Rider did not.

It's true that simply reverting the MG change would improve the situation, and it would be a lot easier to do, but that only turns a heavily flawed design into a somewhat flawed one.

Assassinate was never meant to be used against bosses. It was originally a gimmick skill that dealt poor damage unless you charged it up by staying in dark sight, making it useless for DPS. We changed Assassinate into an actual strong skill, and I consider it our responsibility to change shad skills further to ensure that they don't experience a unique disadvantage compared to other classes when attacking.

 

No one is arguing this. You misread Becca's post (honestly I feel like you've done that a lot in this thread). Then someone brought up the irony of implementing the change and making them more effective seduce mules.

Win/lose is so beta dude, this is a discussion and my opinion is just as valid as yours lmao; someone already brought up the consequence of allowing potions in darksite, pretty much making the entire chain of changes irrelevant if not more problematic. Your suggestion of having HT just dispel it just another unnecessary change we have to deal with.

If the end result is the same then it ends up just a discussion of value gained from the effort provided, which in the big picture that you alluded to earlier, really doesn't make a difference. You already have 3 separate solutions to accommodate a single change that results in the same value

I'm not talking about assassinate, refer to the users that are, also assassinate has been a day 1 macro with BS I'm pretty sure.

 

I feel like we're not on the same page here. I would like for potions to work in dark sight because you can only use assassinate while in dark sight, and dark sight causes autopot to fail. Assassinate is central to this discussion because it's the only reason why shads are using dark sight at bosses in the first place.

Allowing autopot during DS would remove these random autopot fails and increase QoL for shadower mains.