I tried to show consideration to the other/future readers of this thread so I shrank the text that you (with poor and terrible decision-making) made really, really large for some unapparent reason. Anyway, to address some points you made. I mean to discuss this in a civilized manner, so please do not take this as a direct attack. But I would like to point out the hypocrisy in something you said. You had mentioned... Aren't you the one also forming strawman arguments? And I'm not sure exactly you understand one is, as I'll mention later. Absolutely nowhere (oh, I both bolded and italicized this, so please pay close attention here) did the staff ever imply that Omok is destructive/harmful/counterproductive (hereinafter d/h/c since you used these three adjectives so much) to the MapleRoyals community. From reading, the only thing I could gather was that there was no need to make Omok sets any easier or harder to make. You're using a strawman argument. You're implying that the staff was saying Omok is d/h/c, and you want to undo all of this d/h/c-ness to protect us all. Please understand this point here. NO ONE (the staff especially) wants to make any changes (or lack thereof) that are d/h/c to the community. It's simply that there's absolutely no need to make them easier than they are atm to gather. I mean, I won't say that they're easy. But they're not that hard. When I was farming for pie monsters in HHG2, I accumulated a massive amount of slime/mushroom Omok pieces. And I was using a Shadower (no love for them, RIP, even in new source). Just jumping and spamming BoT. Now, your primary argument was that Omok sets are "too difficult and time consuming to create" and so you wanted less pieces per set. Well, Wiosnaidzie's response wasn't a strawman argument. Your response, rather, I think was. You said Omok sets are too hard and take too long to make. Aka, the pieces are too hard to get. And what did he tell you? He gave you options to obtain those pieces. He told you that you could farm for some time to get one, and so it's not so much an issue of being hard as it is long (time-consuming, in your words). He also told you you could buy it instead. Now, that's not long, but it sure would be hard. Does he address your argument of them being too difficult and time-consuming to create? Yes he does! Now, how could we get them easily and cheaply? Well, sure, if every slime and pig and Omok-y monster dropped 10 pieces per monster. Or... idk. It took 10 pieces to create a set. But I mean, monster cards take 100 cards and no one complains. Now I'm not using the monster card as an argument (or I'd be a hypocrite like you), but as an example. You seem awfully fixated on the fact that they're to hard to make and many other players are in your position, seemingly oppressed by the staff and being prevented from having fun with Omok. Now how did you respond to Wio (name too long to type). You say, "just grind for 7 hours with a bishop you don't have to get all the pieces you need, duh" and "buy it for 300mil its so cheap, youre such a casual you clearly don't care about omok". Seriously? Who's forming the strawman arguments here? C'mon man. I seriously did not mean to come off as attacking, but just reading the way you typed and framed your arguments and responded just... uh. Made me feel like I woke up on the wrong side of the bed. Read Wio's response and ignoring that "insane" part (which is true, because how the f-, uh, flying pig did you think it was a good idea to bring in another server and competition...? Like c'mon man.) Now, I will admit you made one good point. "In short, you do not need to make changes to omok, but you should want to make changes. It can only make your product better, if there are no appreciable downsides to increasing omok engagement." That's true. As far as I can tell, there's no reason not to make them easier to get. You could just implement my proposed "ideas" up there. Why not? I don't know. I just play the game. That's why we have these feedback threads, to propose changes to make in the future. But... I will admit your supposed reasons to make Omok sets are hard to disprove. "Fun", "smarter"... I mean, we could look to similar games IRL and talk about how that improves intelligence (do they? Maybe). Or fun... not sure how to quantify that. Bringing in nostalgia has no place here. I could be wrong, but I don't think the current GMS lost Omok(?). <-- Please correct me if I'm wrong here, and apologies in advance if I am. And... just for the sake of your argument, wouldn't maintaining "nostalgia" mean making Omok just as "hard" to get as it was in the past? If anything, it's easier now because of increased drop rate/spawn rate. Or are you implying that we should nerf those tw-... no, I don't want to imply you were arguing for that and also create a strawman argument. (And also, the Orbis ship thing is different. Similar to how we have FM warping and stuff, those absolutely do improve qol. This... uh....) You see where I'm going right? I absolutely agree with you in that I don't see any downsides to creating one. But... why haven't we? I don't know. Keep up the discussion, but at least... argue for it better? Idk. I forgot where I was going with this because memory RIP. Last point. As you could tell, bolding and italicizing can serve as effective means of placing emphasis on certain areas of the text. It's better than just increasing font size like you did, which just... ugh. Idk. It comes off as shouting? And... idk. It ticked me off, but maybe that's me personally. And sorry if I came off as angry. I guess I was because reading your responses were... uh, nvm. Looking forward to a continued discussion with staff here too! But I'm not good at this. Show mercy.
You quoted me out of context, very mean btw. The point I made in the post right before the one you quoted asks for "Arguments Against" that may prove omok to be bad in some way for the maple community. That has been one of my focuses in this entire thread, that nobody can invalidate the "Arguments in Favor" of omok and thus, action should be taken in favor of omok. So when I made that huge bold statement, it was in backlash to the fact that the GM peoples have been (and still are) avoiding the "Arguments in Favor." We do share a point: the GMs have "Absolutely nowhere" said whether or not omok is good or bad. That has been my point for the past few posts. I have given them chances to clarify themselves on their position. Thus, I will imply they disagree with this statement if they do not explicitly say otherwise. I would obviously remove said implications if they clarify their position themselves. Also, allow me to further explain their strawman argument. I do not want to argue whether or not the amount of pieces is too high. I want to argue whether or not omok should be promoted or not. I want them to state their position, mostly because it's persuasion by progression. It goes in three parts: (1) omok is good for the community, (2) we should promote omok more, (3) why do we even have a 200-piece omok grind at all?! This is also first principles thinking: should omok be promoted, yes or no? Framing the argument in this question is to figure out whether or not we are at least aligned in our thinking. If yes, then we can move forward in some way. If not, this needs to be further debated. That having been said, you got my primary argument wrong. You've pinpointed my solution as my argument, which is different. If you wish to invalidate my solution, that is fine, but doing so does not invalidate or weaken my argument. The argument stands as it does, whether this solution (or any other) is proposed or implemented. Allow me to be as explicit as possible: My Argument: Omok is a casual and fun mini-game that should be promoted because it can engage the community and improve social functions in the MapleRoyals community My Solution: Lower amount of pieces necessary to create omok sets to remove high barrier of entry for this mini-game. GM Responses to Argument: GM Responses to Solution: The amount of pieces needed to craft omok sets are not too high, it just requires hours of grinding or 300mil. My Rebuttal to Argument: (Hey you haven't given a position or stance on the argument. Please state one.) My Rebuttal to Solution: The amount of pieces is definitely way too damn high. These conditions are preposterous; you can't grow a casual community of omok players under these conditions. Therefore, if we disagree on the solution infinitely many times, we would still not make any progress on the actual argument here. The argument still stands, and you can agree with the argument but disagree with the solution. Therefore, in your response, please frame your thinking towards the argument, not the solution. And btw, you've already started to do that. "I absolutely agree with you in that I don't see any downsides to creating one. But... why haven't we? I don't know." You are now at stage 3! Why haven't we introduced an easier way to get omok?! Why should there be a 200-piece count grind at all?
My argument, outlined in picture form with a graph. Sure, you don't need to make a change. You can think the current solution is fine, that 200 pieces and hours of grinding or 300mil is what everybody must pay to play omok. Or you can promote omok, encourage more people to play, and notice how there is a positive improvement in terms of "fun!" Do you think this graph is wrong or inaccurate?
Hey Master. Lots to reply to (I think?), but there's something I have to bring up first. I re-read my post in your thread, and I want to apologize how I know I came off. Y'know... pissed, angry (I guess this is the same thing as pissed, though), uhh. Pretty attacking, despite my saying otherwise. I guess it was because I read your posts/responses and they just rubbed me wrong somehow, not blaming you or anything. So I'm sorry about my post. But anyway, your new responses to my post. They made me feel bad because you were better at... phrasing this time. Without sounding like me lol. On a bad day RIP. (I guess discussing like this is much better? Mb though. I didn't help too much to contributing to the atmosphere.) Anyway, to the content. The only reason why I said what I did was because I never saw your argument of seeking the promotion of Omok. "I do not want to argue whether or not the amount of pieces is too high. I want to argue whether or not omok should be promoted or not." Your solution (lowering the amount of pieces) is definitely one possible solution to the argument, if there ever was one (Omok promotion). I didn't happen to see you ever bring this argument up (so your fault), or at least I don't think(?) I saw it (so my fault), so the part about lowering the amount of pieces needed was basically viewed as your argument. And that's why it was the main point everyone (myself included) focused on. That's all we saw. (<--- Btw not playing the blame game or anything, just for clarity as mentioned in Edit. ) I agree though with some other things you said. Ignoring whether or not you did mention promoting Omok more, or whether it was because I didn't see it, that's definitely something to look forward to. Something that I think I'd also look forward to. So I guess I wouldn't mind, and maybe I'd even like, seeing more Omok around (or even everywhere). "Framing the argument in this question is to figure out whether or not we are at least aligned in our thinking." So yeah, I guess we're okay there lol. Another solution that would promote not only Omok, but match cards too (capitalized or no?), would be too have official tournaments with decent prizes to incentivize the creation of lots more sets. And see more players. I mean, let's call them "farmers" (people who'll farm for Omok pieces). Farmers will know that players will want more Omok sets to be in circulation, now that there's... a reason to play them. So farmers will be able to actually profit and see a market with demand for such things. Price would drop, probably. I mean, if there's enough farmers the price should drop. Because of competition and blah blah. Economics stuff. How would we arrange Omok/mc competitions? Idk. But yeah. Going back to what I said, I don't exactly have a particular stance or opinion towards the creation of Omok sets and whether or not that should be changed with less pieces, so I'll leave that for other people to talk about and discuss. However, I do agree with you in that I see no harm in promoting Omok, so why not? Let's just say that I joined your camp and want to see Omok more popular. Should this change the way it's created? Idk. I'll let the forums figure that out too lol. Cheers. (Also, good graph. Simple and easy to understand lmao. If too simplified. Feltbadman. Dw though, I got your point after reading halfway through your first response to me.) Edit: Clarifying some ambiguity.
Since you've been asking for farming strategies and easy ways to get an Omok set completed, I did a very simple forum search for the keyword Omok and found this in a thread similar to this one: The thread this quote originated from is also the only other thread on the forums where a player complained that omok pieces are too hard to get. Just like this current thread, not many people if any at all agreed with the statement made by the original poster and thus resulted in dying out pretty fast. However that aside, if what this one player said is true, it would take a bishop 2 hours at most to collect all pieces for an omok set if the bishop knows what he is doing. Considering you only have to make 1 omok set in a lifetime, I don't think 2 hours of your life is going to be the end of the world if you want to own one so badly. If farming isn't your thing, you can also try making a new character and walk around Maple Island to see if you can find and ask any islanders. Since Maple Island has no Omok selling npc, some islanders have hundreds if not thousands of omok pieces on them unless they've npc'd them.
Do you think omok is something the GMs are interested in promoting as a way for the community to engage with each other and as another social perk/feature for the server as a whole?
I said it took me 6 hours to farm pieces, but not with Bishop so please do not misrepresent my messages. I was on 45 spearman, focused more on finishing another quest, and getting pieces during that quest was my secondary objective, yet it didn't take that long. You pretty much created this thread saying that omok is fun, but hard to get and that amount of pieces required to make one should be lowered. I mean, go read your first post in the thread - that's exactly your point. Yet, after you've been proven wrong on how easy it is to make your own omok set, you come up with this: I do not want to argue whether or not the amount of pieces is too high. I want to argue whether or not omok should be promoted or not. I feel like you're losing yourself in your own words. I'm the type of person that shoots straight and tells you exactly what i think, instead of beating around the brush. I can't help but think that you're the type of person that won't give up even when proven wrong. Pride or some part of your character just won't let you do that, even though deep down you know very well that you're wrong. Some of us value our time, and don't want to spend it in this circus-like thread. More than a few people replied to this thread already and so far nobody thinks the same way as you about omok sets. Therefore the topic of this conversation is closed (at least to me). I wanted to end my post saying that nobody supports your case, so it won't go live but it's already too hard to determine what's your ultimate objective of this thread, as it seems the first one you made wasn't the real one. Will the second one be?
If you are in need of extra pieces add me in game, IGN: Faithful. I have lots of pieces, I won't be online today but tomorrow is fine with me EST.
First of all, your arguments are very irrelevant and redundant, to blatantly put it, it's poop. No one suggested that omok is harmful towards the community and that it's utility have no relevance towards the price and obtainability of omok sets. By applying your logic, should the rate of white scrolls and chaos scrolls being obtainable from gachapons be increased? Since they serves even more benefit than omok sets, and should be at a lower price? Also, in my humble opinion, 300m isn't that expensive for an omok set. You have to comprehend that 300m can't even get you decent gears or even last you from attack potions. And since like you said, it offers alot of benefit, isn't 300m reasonable for something this good? Perhaps, you may say that since it offer so much benefits, GM should make it easier for the community to obtain. But this is a fucking game not a country where there is a government obtaining taxes to provide benefits to its citizens. Besides, assuming you have economic knowledge based on your graph that you drew, you should know that in a market when there's a demand, and low in supply, there will be an increase in price, you cannot blame the game or the GMs just because you can't afford it. The utility doesn't justify a price in a fucking game ok??? If had you spent your time grinding or earning mesos to purchase omok pieces instead of whining and complaining on such a small issue, you would have at least be half way thru getting an omok set. So please stop whining and start hunting pigs and slimes, or even start writing an essay on global warming which you can make a better use of your time and energy.
Well this ran out of hand, I'm kind of bummed out knowing I NPC'd about 200 mil worth of Omok pieces though. If everyone had focused on collecting pieces instead of typing walls of text we'd have doubled the amount of sets on the server.
Double post! I did some "research" that I'd like to share. The set up: Due to a quest that required me to collect plant samples I decided to kill slimes along the way. Now the plant samples drop from the plants scattered around ellinia, and it's one of those "whack an object: get the prize 1 times out of 20" type of deal. Objectively the worst type of quest in this game. Roughly speaking I killed 1000 slimes guessing by the ammount of slime gells I got, which I assume drop at about 85% rate. I'm basing this % on absolutely nothing except that it seems about right. When I was finally done collecting plant samples I had 30 slime omok pieces in my inventory. In total this cost me roughly an hour and a hafl of active play, and I'm a F/P wizard so I don't have mobbing skills. I believe the orange mushroom has a similar drop rate. Other creatures I've noticed have better droprates, in particular the blocktopus. But it is a scientifically proven fact that omok sets containing ludibrium pieces are inferior in quality, and therefore should not be used to play omok with. Pigs also have a similar drop rate to slimes I can tell from experience, not sure about octos but octo pieces are inferior as well. Conclusions: Slimes drop Omok pieces at a 3% rate, You'd need to kill 3300 slimes to get 99 pieces. You'd need kill an equal amount of orange mushrooms or pigs for their pieces to get a full set Quests that require you to hit boxes/plants/other crap should not exist An omok set takes about 7 hours to make I was AFKing during a snowman event when typing this up, all in the name of science Also it's quite possible the new source might adjust the amount of omok pieces needed, but don't quote me on that.
lol sean, you are late to the party. i addressed the point i made in the big bulky letters already, if you care enough to read it in an earlier post of mine also why omok is different from white scrolls, chaos scrolls, or end gear = it's not game related. it's a minigame. this is the question i want answered: why is omok not promoted at all in this server??
To answer that you could ask yourself; what actually is promoted on the server? The only thing that pops on my mind which is actively promoted are events, other than that nothing at all. Since omok is such a small part of the game, why should it be? I personally think it wouldn't add much to the whole experience of mapleroyals. If you want to play it, actively search for it yourself. Smega about it, post something about it in the community section. Tbh, i don't think help from gms or a change to the game is needed for this.
you shouldn't think of it as "omok is a small part of the game" because that's not what it really is what it really is ...is a mini-game! As in a game within a game and it should be promoted because it's fun and gives the community something fun to engage in from a player's perspective, you do not "need" to promote omok, just like you don't "need" to do a lot of things. from a business perspective, you should "want" to promote it, because it enhances your product and makes it better. it adds value and allows people to do something else within the community. and that's what i don't understand or see equally from the GM's point of view. in terms of a strong business perspective, why wouldn't it be within your interest to promote a mini-game by making it easy to get (essentially just remove the requirement imo)? like what part of your business model would it harm? or would it not coincide with your company's mission statement? i just do not know and would like more, but the GMs will not talk about anything except "getting pieces" as if 200 omok pieces is no joke
I honestly do not understand your obsession with Omok, but Omok is only a small sliver of Maplestory. Omok is one of those things that was made to pass the time when you didn't feel like grinding and training and would rather play a minigame with friends. If a server just went around only promoted Omok, people would wonder what else the server could possibly offer since they're promoting such a small part of the game as a highlight, it would be quite a worrisome advertisement. For the same reason you could say "why not promote Zakum and HT by removing the prequests?" This game is meant to have challenges in order to earn rewards, not have them freely handed out to you. If you so highly value Omok as you seem to, then it is within our interest (our being Royals) to make it a challenge (and strike a balance so it is neither a piece of cake nor utterly impossible) to obtain that reward since it will make you invest even more time playing our server.
If you like Omok so much that you would like to promote how great it is, then you as a player can do so. You have the Community forums, a Shoutbox, Super Megaphones, and tons of players doing nothing with their lives in Henesys and the Free Market. With that said I believe you have all the tools available for you to promote it if you desire to, and I don't see why GMs have to do this for you. This because it's simply not a GM's job to promote things for you, their job is to monitor activity on the server and assist players where needed. From our business perspective, our interest lies in making the server as nostalgic as possible by trying to make it as much GMS like as possible. If in v62 Omok sets cost 198 Omok pieces and an Omok table to create, we prefer not to change this unless it proves to be overly difficult to obtain. But as has been proven by many players, it isn't difficult at all and all it takes is a little time investment to get what you want. It's a once in a lifetime time investment of 2-8 hours, and after that you have an Omok set that you can use as many times as you'd like for as long as this server exists. Omok pieces / sets aren't even in the same price category as White Scrolls and Chaos Scrolls so I don't know how you can compare them in the first place. It's true that a few lazy players have probably invested 200-300m to buy an Omok set from some random guy's hired merchant, but that doesn't mean that the price value is set to 200-300m. In reality the average player would be willing to sell you Omok pieces for 10-500k each, which in the worst case scenario would mean you'd have to invest around 99m to get all 198 Omok pieces. In that worst case scenario the total price cost is still 100-200m lower than the Omok sets you've seen being put up for sale in Hired Merchants. So that leaves the question as to why people would be willing to pay 200-300m for a complete omok set they can find in a hired merchant, to which the answer would be that it's sheer laziness. There are players out there that are too lazy to buy or farm 2x 99 Omok pieces, and thus want to just buy the completed product even if it's at an overpriced value. So the real price formula for the Omok sets in the free market looks something like this: 100m worth of Omok items + 100-200m worth of buyer's laziness = 200-300m for an Omok Set. With the true value of Omok pieces being so low, would the Omok Set creating system really need adjustment?
you know in that part of the website where private servers list out all their features that they have? things like "working bosses, fast transportation, exp rates" you know. you just chuck this as a one-liner in there. i certainly hope you guys wouldn't be stupid enough to only promote omok as if that's the only thing you had. what's funny is that if omok was a viable thing to do (which it currently isnt), you would see more people playing on the server. you can play more time on the server by playing omok with friends and the community! The entire community benefits when everybody plays together and not individually by grinding out pieces i can't promote omok because i would have to distribute sets to everybody who wanted to play. i don't have enough sets. i dont even have 1 set you view omok as a singular activity, and that's where our perspectives differ. i see big picture, you see individual person. i see an entire group of players, having fun, gathered together at kerning city to play omok against each other in a friendly engaging manner. you see a person grinding 6 hours for pieces as a "not bad time investment" since we're getting technical, the correct terms to be used here are "book value" (100mil for pieces) and "market value" (300mil for set). nowhere in life do you ever base your purchases on book value. it is always market value that is the real price. this means the real price for an omok set is not 100mil as you think it is. it is 300mil as the market says it is. nobody uses book value for anything. if i wanted to buy TSLA stock, i don't buy at "book value" as in "okay i want 0.001% of tesla so i will calculate based on book value how much they're worth and translate that into a certain amount and that's how much i'll pay..." no no no, finance never uses book value. if i wanted to buy a bottle of coke would i pay the price of ingredients? no no no. you always pay market value 300mil is not cheap enough for everybody in the community to invest in in order for the community to enjoy it. i am thinking broad scope, more people, i want there to be a community of players
also if my lack of grammar seems like im being assholeish just let me know (im lazy) and ill invest more time in making these responses pretty. im not trying to be an asshole with the hand that feeds
