Thank you for showing how simple and easy it is for a buyer to hover over the item before purchasing it ^ zero sympathy for the lazy turds who don't read the item description/stats before buying
Doesnt seem like xSE7EN got any penalty for scamming as i still see him in cake event. Too bad i cannot do anything to get back what my friend lost. It is quite a shame how evildoers get to go away free from scamming. @sparky95 u did a great job hovering to check item well, it is a really important thing we should do before buying anything. I dont think this should be under “scam” as it will be buyer fault for not checking before purchasing? I guess my term of “scamming” is more on whether the two parties fulfill their promise while trading. But it is usually meaningless to get someone to shoot up the price themselves when selling things. Actually it will be quite sad that everytime we purchase anything, we will need to record it down. I guess this will be my habit from now on
Can't wait to see GMs turning a blind eye on such obvious scam attempts because "it is your fault that you did not check before buying it". "lazy" is the wrong use of word. Maybe for the bundle scamming, yes. But this is obviously a psychological setup so that the victim thinks there is a competitor for the same good deal. If you were not aware of this prior to the same incident happening to you, chances are you would fall for it too. With that ego of yours though, I expect "no way I would be fooled" as an answer. However, majority of people (who are unaware of the scam) are likely to fall for it, >>>because of his setup<<<. Not because they are "lazy".
I believe in personal responsibility. If I were to hypothetically buy an item that I did not want because I overlooked checking or re-checking the stats, I would own it and use better judgement going forward. What I would not do is play the victim and blame the other individual for taking advantage of my unwillingness to look at an item before buying it (this includes every time I retrade somebody or attempt to purchase an item in store regardless if there “is a competitor”). It has nothing to do with ego and everything to do with believing in taking ownership for a personal mistake. When you purchase the wrong item for any reason it is a mistake on behalf of the buyer and the way to avoid it going forward is just as simple as looking at the stats *every time* before you buy something. There is no counter argument for this because it truly is this clear cut. Look at the item stats first and you’ll never run the risk of buying the wrong item. Voila.
My recording was done intentionally to expose a known scammer. A guild member @TomTechTales first spotted the person selling FS at an unreasonably low price then proceeded to check if the deal was legit. With his careful approach, he didn't fall to the trick then informed everyone in the guild of what happened. Upon hearing it, I got frustrated and wanted to expose the scammer and raise awareness of the potential danger others may encounter in future. I approached the scammer with full knowledge in advance hence didn't fall to the trick he had set up. However, I believe many will fall for this trick not because they are lazy but because they are competitive as it's part of human's natural instinct. Although self awareness is important and can prevent accidental purchases, what the scammer in my recording did was clearly wrong and ill-intended. Anyone as buyer should be more careful when making a purchase but we shouldn't let such evil intended people to freely lurk around, making unfair profits from other innocent players.
SeLLiNG LAMBORGHINI $1,000 !!! "OMG WOW REALLY OK ILL BUY IT!" HOHOHO HERE IS LAMBO!! *PULLS UP IN HONDA* "SUR ILL STILL BUY HONDA HUMAN NATURAL INSTINCT 2 B COMPETITIVE!" .... 10 seconds later "W8 U SELL ME HONDA N NOT LAMBORGHINI??? SHAME ON U!!!!"
Really appreciate it i really like what u say about the scammer intention and “we shouldnt let such evil intended people to freely lurk around”. I really hoped something can be done about this but it seem really unlikely gave up hope.
@nosebleed Ok. It is the victim's fault, and I have seen nothing but them admitting to their own mistake. So may I know your stance on the "scammer" sir? Is he free of guilt? Should he be punished?
Is he free of guilt? That depends on the respective player and their moral compass. In the eyes of some his actions are immoral. In the eyes of others they are fair game. When it comes to the rules, it is legal and not punishable. In my eyes it is fine and should not be punished. What I don't consider fine is real scamming where something is being stolen (such as not paying for a Zakum Helmet, not fulfilling your leech sale, etc.) and I wholeheartedly believe that should be punished. To me taking advantage of the lazy, eager, easily manipulated, naive, gullible, etc. are all just a part of life. If you're in North America, think of people like those "beauty/skin care" booths in the mall who sell this snake oil shit for hundreds of dollars claiming it promotes anti-aging and all of this other nonsense when it's really all a lie and cost them more in fancy packaging than product itself. Sure, they're completely misleading the customer, but the customer CAN learn about the product and determine that it is not worth it before making the purchase - they just don't, and to me that's fair game for the seller. He's not holding the buyer back from doing research, they choose not to. Similar to how these 'scammers' (bundle shop, this FS thing, etc.) aren't stopping the buyer from looking at the item stats, the buyer just doesn't do it. Hope that clears up my stance for ya!
Yes. This is my stance. Regardless of the victims, this is your justification for their action, and I disagree. Just because scamming is "a part of life", it does not mean people should start doing it, they have the choice to not fool others just as much as the victims have the choice to not be fooled. They started doing this sort of thing with the initially malicious intention to take advantage of others, for self-interest, and to me that is unacceptable. In real life, the only barrier that stops people from scamming, robbing, raping, murdering is the law and the punishments associate with it. In this server, there is no such rule (yet), hence why people are doing it, because there is no rules nor any actions being taken to stop them. Also, there is Federal law that prohibits false and misleading advertising. They probably just have not been caught in any lawsuits yet, those people you mentioned.
Just to point out, staff doesn't "ignore" it, there's nothing in the TnC about scamming... so that's why we are here. Also want people to remember this thread is to help hash out how it should be added, not to argue between people. Please.
I did not ask for your stance-you asked for mine. I simply answered the questions that you asked me. I did not say that people should "start doing it" - you made that up. I did not ask what you find acceptable. You are completely out of touch with reality if you think that misleading advertising isn't rampant. Those Israeli cosmetics 'scammers' have been around for decades now. You can't sue people for selling overpriced snake oil. There are no punishments for people who engage in comparable behavior to what is being done in-game because it isn't against the law. If somebody is advertising a Honda and they show up in a Pontiac you as the potential buyer don't have to purchase it. That's not against the law for him to do. It's stupid, yes, but not illegal.
My 2 cents: If something is added to the T&C, there would be punishments attached to it. How much should the infractions be? How many should there be before a permaban? IMO, 30days/permaban. Since this people use alts to scam, I don't know if GMs could do an IP ban or to track their main account for the ban. Banning a lvl 15 mule won't be a big problem for someone scamming. How do you define scamming? What is included in that definition? What are the cut offs? Should there be clear cut offs? IMO, scamming is when you take advantage of someone, in a clear mallicious manner. For exemple, a merchant buying stuff underpriced is not doing it with a mallicious manner. People desperate for money or that does not know the price can sell for lower values, they accept it, either for lack of knowledge or for necesity. The thing offered in the first time is the same as the endresult(exemple, steel ore 250k each when you could sell at 400k). The person is not being scammed because the deal was the same as they previously accepted. Now, fast traders and the stack shop tooth/changing the item thing: They cleary are hoping to profit over people that are not overly cautious with their sellings. They present something but then trick people into accepting things that were not proposed in the first place. The first offer is a thing(Exemple, clean FS 650m) but the end result is different because they tried to trick someone(650m for a 0atk FS). Same thing with people that scam bigfoot toes/zhelms: There was a clear-cut deal(zhelm and no looting/ 80m for 1hour of leech) that the outcome was changed in the end in mallicious manner (Guy grabbed the gen20 and ran away, guy grabbed his money leech and ran away) If the buyer was dumb it does not matter, the scammer was cleary acting in a mallicious manner. The person buying it would not have done so if they had time to rethink. What sort of evidence should be required? How much, if any, should be provided by the player? How much, if any, should be corroborated by staff (read: how much should found in logs?, etc.) I don't know how much a GM can dig into logs, but if they can see an item being sold for less than it was negotiated before the actual trade, in a clear scammer manner(Fast trade, Shop, etc) It should count. If those kind of info(trade logs, negotiation talk logs) cannot be digged, the only way to prove would be with a video of the whole transaction. Rember taht this people that fall for that are naive players, so they probably won't be recording anything making it hard to be beliavable. Would we want to refund or is a ban sufficient? What if they steal something consumable, and use it and it works (Like a WS on an item or they use the money to buy items from players). How do we account for situations like that? If its possible to retriev the item, IMO it should be done. If the consumable is used, ideally the item should be burned and the consumable should be retrieved. However I don't know if this is a hard thing to pull off. There's probably more. This of course isn't an all inclusive list. The biggest problems I see is the naive player not being able to record to actually provide evidence, and also how to actually ban the person and not his scammer alt. IMO scamming should be bannable because its something cleary wrong that will be incentivised if there is no consequences. Blacklisting and banning alts won't change the problem, only making it slightily more difficult. We need to think that not everyone is street smart, there are some clueless people that will be taken advantage of, just like your grandma with mild dementia giving her credit-card number because the guy on the phone told her she won a new car. Something else I would add: Maybe make a PSA about common scams, make some in-game smegas(Those yellow text that tell us that warriors are nice and that I'm playing for 4 hours) about scammers so everyone is aware of the problem;
Nosebleed you're wrong. You can get jailed for snake oil sales and making false claims for your products in North America. The FTC can fine and demand you to cease such practices. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Trudeau an example of a guy who had many bogus products and got shut down. He also got jailed for other things. Also I'm not sure what your beef with beauty products/anti-aging products is. You do know those products primarily use retinoids which have been shown in scientific studies to help with skin regeneration. People with sun damage, scars, burns, wrinkles, etc. benefit from those products. And like anything else in the world, there are companies that charge a ridiculous premium on presentation and delivery of their products. You might want to inform yourself before you call them snake oil products. Couple studies on the subject: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2699641/ https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamadermatology/fullarticle/412795 I fully support there being rules against deliberate item swaps. I don't think creating a hostile environment for the buyer as the sole holder of responsibility is good for the game. If I secured a deal with a seller for a specific item for a specific price, I don't think it's fair to just be like "haha good one you almost tricked me see you tomorrow mate " when sellers pull switcheroos with the intention of scamming.
I've seen a fair amount of false bidding here and would be really keen to see some sort of deterrent toward this type of behavior.
7 days first offense, permanent ban ( lenient enough for those who may not know the rules beforehand, severe enough for repeat offenders ) The act of making a deal with another person then proceed to actively and deliberately mislead them / not honoring part of the deal which had been agreed upon by both parties. Leech scams/ Incomplete trades / Fast trades / Boss service etc. (subject to a case by case basis) Bundle sales / misleading items in free market shops will not be considered scams. (No exceptions) As much details as possible, as well as Video logs / Uncropped screenshots detailing the deal, transaction, and after-deal. Details may also include before and after servertime/ base hp/ stats/ exp bar etc. (subject to a case by case basis) No refunds (No exceptions)
I would not, because scamming is in fact Nostalgic. We pride ourselves on being a nostalgic server. I'm sure you all have fond memories of being scammed & scamming others in original GMS, as I myself do as well. Scamming, and even KSing is a nostalgic aspect of the game that I don't wish to see be trampled on just because these new players complain about "I'm the one who put in the effort and he just came up and took the drop", or "I saved up enough mesos for leech, and when I paid him for leech, he just disconnected". Well tough lucky, little Timmy, the game's not all sunshine and rainbows. If you wanna get to the top, sometimes you gotta bring others down, just like in the original Maplestory. That exploration, the fun, the people, and the people who are assholes are all part of the nostalgia that is Maplestory, and so I vote no on having a punishment for scamming. /s
Scamming has always been around for all types of games and will never go away. A very convoluted matter as it is very hard to properly prosecute any individual(s). Also very time consuming for the staff case by case especially when there is little to no proof; just hearsay. In my opinion, scamming itself should not be in the T&C as enough evidence would fall under objectionable behavior, I believe that has been done in the past for notorious cases. Players just need to be educated on not being scammed and if they do, just take the L and learn from it. Cases where payment are done after a service, like zak helm services, sellers should understand the liabilities of bringing a stranger that may renege on the service or even steal the lootations. The time spent on trying to lynch scammers for negligible amounts of mesos could be used to recoup said mesos. It is a dog eat dog world out there, the weak and ignorant will be taken advantage of by others unless they smarten up. ~a noobs 2 cents~
