Its been a while since Ellin Forest was released (#70) and subsequently nerfed the following patch (#71). An unfortunate side effect of this nerf was it reduced a majority of the traffic this area received, which I feel played a part in why EPQ is very inactive. One of the motivating factors for players to finish the long questline for EPQ was the two daily bosses Chao & Ephenia. I think this daily was a great addition to the game as it helped a wide range of players gain a solid income stream. I think rewarding players to sign in and play the game, even if its for a short time, is massively better than inactive voting. As it stands now, I rarely see another player at the bosses/town (even right after reset) and hardly see parties recruiting for the PQ. I think revisiting the nerf and tweaking the numbers around can help revive this area. If it's still seen as too rewarding, perhaps removing some of the fluff drops (yellow snowshoes, yellow work gloves, 250 NX cards) from the drop table would help. Admittedly, my opinion on this is shaped from my own, my friends, and my guildmember's experiences with the content. It might not map onto the majority of the player base so I'm curious to see other opinions Share your thoughts: Do you kill these bosses daily? If yes, do you think these bosses are in a good spot now? If no, would a buff to them bring you back?If you feel there should be changes, what would you add/remove?
We intend to review the NX drops from bosses in the near future, and will start including the new 1,000 NX card which I teased in this thread. Edit: I am curious what you mean when you say fluff drops and mention in particular the Yellow Work Glove and Yellow Snowshoe. I would have thought these are potentially the better drops you can get from the bosses as they can be worth quite a lot if you manage to get good stats.
I honestly forgot about that post and perhaps that'll be the solution here From my perspective those items were added to increase the average drop value to the two bosses. Both YWG and YSS before were scarce and highly sought after. They were expensive because they each only had one real source, female boss Anego for YSS and Showa gach for YWG (Ignoring the maple island quest ). As a result of having these drop from the Ellin bosses, the value of these items plummeted and are now in overabundance. I feel it took away value from that other content and unintentionally hurt the market for those items. Most players I talked to were going to Chao and Ephenia for potential 5K NX drops, so naturally if there's a need for compromise, those items are something I would be in favor of losing for the return of higher NX drops.
Edit: Do you kill these bosses daily? Used to before nerf since I do pap almost daily, now I only sometimes do it if I'm like 250 nx away from APR / gacha (30) If yes, do you think these bosses are in a good spot now? Rest Answered by my post: If no, would a buff to them bring you back? If you feel there should be changes, what would you add/remove? Hopefully it doesn't look like I am for nerfing content with my post, just want a shift away from some drops to more nx or maybe possibly different drops that don't directly compete with other available niche content. Definitely agree that YSS and YWG should be removed from the drop table from Ellin and have the other drops be adjusted to compensate. Royals already has custom changes in place to reduce the supply of mage gear from lower level content (missing valuable int scrolls from lower level mobs, missing yss on genin, etc.) so I think making this change falls in line with previous design decisions. Maybe I'm a bit biased as a veteran player, but I think Chao drops the pet hp scrolls way way too often. I do understand new players appreciate alternative methods to gain hp, but it doesn't feel very rewarding to see something like pet hp 30% drop over and over again. Before Ellin content, it was one of the better scrolls to get from shrine gacha and its oversupply has made it just become another of the filler low rolls. Doesn't feel rewarding to get it as a drop from Chao nor from gacha now. As for nx, the new 1k nx card seems like a decent place to start, but we will have to wait until that's implemented. Definitely would like to see a slight buff to nx dropped to make the boss more appealing to all players.
On the other side, don't you guys think nerfing drops such as yss/ywgs/pet hp would discourage new players to to those bosses even more? IMO pet hp 30% should stays at high drop % cause it makes them less valuable, so new players can buy them more often. Let's not forget 30% means you can blow up your NX equips which makes them less tempting to use. This scroll is already a nice gamble even if it's not that rare anymore. (btw I'm "veteran" too and not really looking for pet hp scrolls, but I'm saying that as if I was a new player, I'd enjoy the easy access to those scrolls)
i was thinking if elin PQ ear and ring can get some more hp and stats boost since they are untradeable , with 10% to fail on makeing , over 40full runs of the PQ and few other etc it feels like overkill compared to other alternatives in the market and their low prices and even tradeable about boss not sure if possible but keep the current rate and like add +exp&drop % based on players count in the party (unique players preferably not mules) or just add back the initial drop rate of 5k's as it was but limit somehow mules ( the drops was good untill people started to do with alot of mules and stop makeing the ring/ear )
This is exactly where I'm coming from. I agree with the rest of your post about YWG and YSS, the pet hp 30% I'm on the fence. Additional HP sources are a touchy subject and ultimately if its at the cost of losing what used to be a ~8M scroll from shrine for players to have easier access to HP, then I think I'm ok with its droprate. To be clear, I'm not trying to nerf the content, my goal would be to rebalance (buff) and revive it. I could be wrong, but I'm under the impression that if the droprate of 5K nx cards was returned back to its original value and YSS/YWG were removed from the table, I believe you would see activity levels similar to when it was released. Those equips used to hold a lot of value, those same boots now can be found for under 30M and it can take a while to sell. This added value to Chao & Ephenia didn't come for free, it actually removed value from Anego and the Showa gach, which you could argue discourages players from that content. I honestly think the ring is pretty balanced as is, its comparable to a 5-6 main stat ring for most attackers and it has a nice chunk of HP. I just think its difficult for a newer player to get a ring without investing a lot of effort & time trying to form a party. Exp values could be looked at too, I overlooked that being lv200 but that is a good point - perhaps a similar system to the party exp in LHC for lower level players
I really like the points you made and pretty much agree with everything that's been laid out. >Do you kill these bosses daily? There will be weeks where I will kill them on my shad daily. The small NX bonus is okay, I like the earring scroll drops, and it's an easy way to get myself a boatload of potions. I also really like the Tomanha's Potion of Speed (haste potion), which is useful for my CPQ mule. >If yes, do you think these bosses are in a good spot now? Meh. According to popular opinion, no (and justifiably so for higher level players.) I used to kill them daily when I was in the 120-130 level range as part of my pap routine, since they still give a decent chunk of EXP at that level for the time investment. >If no, would a buff to them bring you back? I'll answer this question anyway. If there was a buff, this would motivate me to do them daily, no matter how infuriating it is to trek the forest on my mount . >If you feel there should be changes, what would you add/remove? There are two parts to this. The experience, and the drops. Experience: Caveat: I used my shad to kill, and in the runs with HS, my bishop did not do any damage. So your EXP distribution in a duo will vary. Chao EXP Solo, no HS - 1,856,000 EXP Duo, HS - 2,227,200 Ephenia EXP Solo, no HS - 2,560,000 EXP Duo, HS - 3,072,000 For comparison's sake, one run of Ellin PQ gives 1600000 + (character_level - 110)*50000. [Source] At 120, a more reasonable level to start EPQing, you would gain 2,100,000 experience per run. Spoiler: Comparison Details Having an efficient duo, you can probably do daily two runs Chao and two runs Ephenia in 30 minutes (this includes walking.) An efficient EPQ party can finish the PQ in around 8 minutes. Seems like the experience gain is on par when comparing to bosses, given the bosses' drops and the fact you can solo/duo easily. So, from an experience point of view for our lower level friends, it seems like a worthwhile activity. Also note, both bosses are weak to holy damage, so a Bishop can contribute as an attacker very efficiently as well. Does anyone disagree on this front? Should the bosses give slightly more experience? I think it's okay, but please feel free to share numbers that contradict mine, as some of them (timings) come from memory, which is unreliable. Drops: Now let's look at the drops for each boss. Each list is in the order they appear in the monster book. Notable Drops: Chao's Tusk (Crafting), NX (5000), Power Elixir, Tomanha's Potion of Speed, Black Crystal, Earring STR 30%, Pet HP 30%, Yellow Snowshoes, Ellin Crystal. Spoiler: Chao Chao's Tusk NX 250 Card Sunset Dew NX 5000 Card Power Elixir Tomanha's Potion of Speed Sparta Red Craven Golden Neschere Pinaka Golden Smith Hammer Aluminum Bat Black Crystal Tomahawk Earring STR 30% Cape DEX 30% Spear ATK 60% Dagger ATK 60% Pet HP 30% Yellow Snowshoes Ellin Crystal Notable Drops: Ephenia's Soul Shard (Crafting), NX (5000), Power Elixir, Earring STR 60%, Earring DEX 60%, Earring LUK 60%, Yellow Work Gloves, Ellin Crystal Spoiler: Ephenia Ephenia's Soul Shard NX 250 Card Power Elixir Mana Elixir Reindeer Milk NX 5000 Card Golden Nisrock Berzerker Blue Arzuna Dark Bazura (Female) Dark Canal Hood Eviscerator Earring DEX 60% Earring LUK 60% Shoes Speed 10% Pet HP 10% Shield DEF 60% Earring STR 60% Dragon's Breath 20 Energy Orb 20 Yellow Work Gloves Ellin Crystal I think both of these drop tables are pretty decent, and I do support the removal of Yellow Work Gloves and Yellow Snow Shoes for the previously mentioned reasons. As for pet HP scrolls, while yes, the price has decreased, we should acknowledge how pricy scrolling pet equips can end up being. At this point in time, I think the cost to HP gain ratio for pet equips is balanced. I will say, 10% Pet HP scrolls seem pretty obsolete to me, given that you're probably 30%ing the first couple of slots, and if you fail a scroll you'll just buy another pet equip. It seems we can all agree that previously these bosses were dropping too much NX, and the nerf was a bit overboard (thank you Joel for the clarification below), hence the discussed middle ground of 1000 NX cards. So we can all agree, a slight buff to the NX as it is currently would be nice. Another suggestion. How do people feel about opening up the exchange quest (NPC Loha) to Chao's Tusk and Ephenia's Soul? I feel like people who no longer need to do EPQ tend to have them laying around, and that would perhaps be an additional motivator to do the activities daily. Further, who is doing the exchange quest anyway, even those who go through the entire quest sequence. That is some dead content there that can perhaps be revived by Reducing the amount of ETC. required to exchange. The current amount of 200 seems too excessive. For Choa's Tusk/Ephenia's Soul Shard, the amount could be 2 or 4 of each. Making Chao and Ephenia's mob spawns drop ETC. These can be accumulated over time to exchange. This provides a rewarding feeling to the diligent collectors out there. If you look at the linked exchange quest guide, there are some lucrative rewards in there. I tried to provide as much information here so that, outside of the agreed upon NX increase, we can maybe breath a bit more life into this content.
For context, the nerfs simply brought the droprates into line with other similar content in the game, so don't be under the impression that they drop less NX than other popular similar content~ Whether their placement in the Maple World, or the rest of their rewards deter players from doing them, I'll leave for you to discuss.
Even in comparison to pap? I felt like pap dropped 5k far more often than these two, even tho in terms of difficulty, epheina is not far off
As someone who grinded these bosses daily from the release of update 70 until a few weeks after the nerfs, i can say this with absolute confidence, the older droprates of 5k were absolutely broken. For bosses that can be soloed in very short times (depending on class and range), getting 4 really good attempts at 5k a day just from them was BIG. But at the same time, with the nerf, they went to the other extreme, and made doing these bosses not worth the treck inside the ellin forest, or the telerock. I hope that they'll be able to achive a more healthy balance point for this boss using the 1k nx card, and that maybe they'll also make mid tier bosses that people kill together like krex, and scar/targa drop the 1k nx for easier splitting and consistent earns
I've been doing Pap/Chao/Ephenia on two of my characters daily for the past month. And I've taken note the NX drops I got from them. Spoiler: NX Drops Pap vs Ephenia Pap definitely has a better chance to drop 5000 NX compared to Ephenia. I've gotten 5000 NX 16 times from Pap while only twice from Ephenia. I would say that both bosses have the same level of difficulty (just different in their mechanics) and I take about 6-7 minutes to solo each boss. Perhaps slightly increasing the drop rate of 5000 NX would be nice, or the drop rate of 5000 NX stays the same but include the 1000 NX drop rate in the table. Chao vs Ephenia I'm surprised that Chao and Ephenia drop rate of 5000 NX is similar, considering Ephenia is harder to kill than Chao. I feel that the drop between this two is unbalance. Of course, Chao and Ephenia does drop other valuable items. But throughout my 50 runs, I have never gotten any YSS and YWG. Probably a rare drop. I did get a few Earring STR scrolls. But another thing I notice from my runs is that both Chao and Ephenia has a chance to drop only one 250 NX. It would be nice if it was change for them to always drop two 250 NX instead. I do hope the changes to the NX drop table that Matt mentioned comes soon. Chao/Ephenia is pretty empty and hard to find anyone to do together for lower levels. Compared to Pap, its much easier to find a party to duo for lower levels.
