In Discussion Content Rose Garden Nerf/Adjustments

Amazing mesos and fun/interactive content limited to 1 hour on a single client? sweet
Mage farming bees better / killing boss faster than normal attackers? acceptable

Running this content without limit on multiple high-level accounts all feeding into 1 player's wealth? breaks the game

 

Please dont let this be Ellin Forest 2.0. A nerf is not needed.

I am a mostly solo player with multiple lvl 170+ chars.

Due to my stressful and long work hours, I can't play often or find time to wait on a party to do a lot of bossing.

Rose Garden is something I can enjoy at my own pace and at my own time.

 

I was trying to say even if farming had a minor advantage to bossing (bossing:farming 4:6 ratio), most people wouldn’t do it. Farming has to have an overwhelming advantage for people to do because farming sucks and is mind draining.

Farming to bossing off event might be around 7:three or 6:4, implying mainly HT, we have to account HT attack pots too/etc.

• Farming while on a major farming event (xmas boxes/CNY) is probably closer to 8:2
• 1.2-1.5x is hard to gauge because it increases book drop rate as well
• Most people who farm only farm when its these insane 8:2 rates because farming is awful to do.

The only reason people do it is for the faster paced progression, its soul draining and it’s mostly just a sanity check. You ask most of the people who had to farm up most of the 87auf helm liquid. Such a large chunk of them burn out and quit soon after after quad/hexa maging for like 1 year consistently. It’s easy to say multimage farming op, which it is, but realistically speaking, there’s probably only 10-12 people who actively farm hexa mage off event for more than 2 hours a week. And it looks gangster af to see how much meso they make per week, but there’s a reason why only around a few players do it during normal rates, its awful to do and also is quite an investment in itself to make 6 4th job mages.

I personally farm heartstoppers mainly to avoid the necessity to quad/hexa mage to get to late game progression.

• I farm with 15 clients and crack around quad ulu mage hourly rates.
• It took me around 1 year straight grinding and building farmers when I was still new to create my first 10 farmers
• 15 is probably around 1.5years but I had a lot more mesos after the first year
• I was essentially taking all my gains to leeching more farmers for my entire first year and saving a little on the side for my first big xbow
• I cut a lot of corners with free ulu/bf leech from friends

I would never suggest any new player to take this route as I could have just made 4 mages and done quad ulu and been making like enough liquid for a perf weapon in like half that time.

TLDR:
Farming while op (specifically multi mage farming), is trash to actually do. Without insane rates, my guesstimate, 95% of this server doesn’t bother farming off major events.

We do literally all we can to avoid having to live the 9-5 multimage farming life.

Edit: Updated Opinion

I feel like a lot of newer players do multimage farm quite a bit when they start.

• Many of them once they washed 1-2 attackers and have a respectable weapon/atk gear set will drop farming and just boss and event farm.
• These players I would also exclude from the pool of regular off event farmers as they will stop, as soon as they hit their early/mid game goal which is reachable quite quickly w multimage farming.

 

Adjustments to Equipment Reward

I remember in Maplesea there was an upgraded version of the Ifia's Ring called Elegant Ifia's Ring. I personally think it would be a nice upgrade to make this an end game UNTRADEABLE ring where one would have to complete 365 full rose garden runs including bonus, 5x ifia's ring, 5 x Chaos Scrolls and like a shit ton of ores to craft. The stats would have to be determined by Staff but I suggest making it like a 6/6 primary and secondary stat for the desired class.



Adjustments to Rose Garden Bonus

Can we make it such that theres no knockback on our chars when we get hit by monsters in rose garden bonus stage? As a bowmaster this is really annoying when we want to catch a bee but theres like 10 frozen roses throwing ice shards at you in a straight line and the bee is flying faster than my red draco mount. At least it seems like it.

Perhaps let us catch bees while on our mounts.

Alternatively, make it such that bees show up as a gold dot in the minimap so we can actually see which direction to go to since the bee will disappear after a short while.

OR, all of the above

- A salty bm solo char

 

I think this is unfortunately inevitable. I think nerfing the CS rate on rose box would help the gains off mass running this, as most of those people dont do the bonus otherwise theyd be rose gardening for like 6 hours+

I think the amount that abuse it (lets say 5+ charas for example)and do bon is pretty low, but most people who can clear rose garden can do 2-3 characters. We shouldn’t hurt the playerbase this was meant for too much. Rose Garden I think does a lot more good than the negatives that come with it.

 

Right, I have no doubt everything you said here is true and trust your expertise. My question is that this was presumably your response to the claim that bossing is pointless now, with perhaps the caveat that HT/Auf is now untradeable farming content as Nut pointed out, just like every other boss in Royals was before the introduction of Rose Garden.

So to summarize:

The best way to make mesos in this game is still arguably mage/summon farming.
Mage/summon farming is mind numbing and painful to most of the player base (bye Dickdann, and others)
People did it anyway because it was the fastest paced progression.
The Rose Garden was introduced as a competitive income source to mage/summon farming that isn't nearly as mind numbing and painful. Tentative conclusions can be drawn that it is in the limited profitability space of at least a 4:6 ratio to mage farming.

Now we have gone from the situation where the fastest progression was (to paraphrase you) mind numbing soul killing 9-5 2nd job, to a (personal opinion) boring but casual and tolerable content. The 95% of the population who you previously estimated was not mage farming have now moved onto this content, if they are capable.

So then I reiterate the question: aside from said above untradeables, what reason do I ever have to run bosses again? Friends? Exciting content? That's what they said about Von Leon and it died anyway, and buffs needed to be made to its reward structure.

As I stated earlier, I do not think that Rose Garden content really needs much of a nerf, if any (except I think ring should drop more frequently in lieu of other top end rewards, but that's another discussion entirely). I think the rest of bossing needs to be restructured, to at least be 4:6 competitive to the 4:6 competitiveness of Rose Garden to mage farming. Previously the incentive to boss was that it was better than mage farming. No longer.

P.S. anecdotally, barely anybody's bossing anymore. Everyone's stuck in 5th Tower. I personally do not see a reason to ever run HT again, except to pendant a friend.

Edit: some additional datapoints to consider
Edit2: as run 1 was due to the spawn rate bug, I doubled the "time" used to calculate the estimate (to 1 hour) - in reality that was a 12 minute run LMAO
Edit3: further bear in mind that I haven't really been doing bonus, and that meso per hour will only go up as I start doing more

 

Just give me the ring , stop give me PE

 

Honestly,

I think bossing with friends is still fun and still great exp.

I think a lot of people are in their honeymoon phase with rose garden spamming, especially the bees. Just how new multimage farmers are super pysched when they start, it’ll eventually die down.

I think staff/GMs will nerf it slightly (potential ideas

• 10-25% less spawn or bee spawnrate
• Less CS odds

And then at least 50% of the people doing rose garden will do it less often then they do now.

Don’t think it’ll die out ever but if you drop the rewards and let players burn themselves out (people doing like 5 bee rooms lol), it’ll naturally level off.

Rose Garden is tricking a lot of anti or non farmers into farming. Once the fresh new content copium wears off it’ll result in them:

1. Only doing a few rounds of bonus rooms
2. Only doing Rose Box hand in
3. Only doing it on boxes that need the ring

The bar will just gets pushed back and back

I invite soft nerfs but I also think naturally some players will stop doing it as much even without nerfs.

 

This is at my current rates 190m/hr

 

I don't think its mentioned anywhere at all on the forums so I just wanna say, I don't think people understand how impactful that "little" oopsie bug that turned the godly system into 5% instead of 10% was. Think of all the bosses in the game, ht auf cwk bonus, they were designed with some profitability in mind. However with that bug, you only see half the intended Godly items the staff designed there to be, for example godly dps, bfc, kanzirs EPs etc etc. I think thats had a huge impact on the shape of this server, resulting in disparity. I could be wrong and I just wanted to bring that up as I've never seen this mentioned elsewhere. You could argue that mage farmers suffer from that bug too, but I think most of their income comes from leeching or yeti etc.

 

i'm more concerned about the fact that this rewards raw mesos instead of valuables or commodities, because i think in the long run, that much mesos injection is harmful for the server economy. It can be equally as rewarding, i just don't think it should be pure mesos.

Ulu1 pre-nerf back then was notorious for its meso injection due to the insane amount of spawn and equips dropping, and every farmer back then basically farmed the heck out of it and what happened? We get CS/WS at 500m+, APRs 16m? Inflation happened til ulu1 got nerfed. This rose garden bonus? The rate it's adding raw mesos to the economy is on a much bigger scale than that pre-nerfed ulu1

 

I agree with this 100%

People think I’m reaching too hard when I told them pure meso is dangerous.

People who aren’t abusing the pure meso of multi mage farm and rose garden might fall behind inflation rate.

23 Glove price:

2022:
CreamGoddess 38b bwg
MissNoa 39b SCG

2019:
Zuccini his sb was 34b, offer of 16cape+21 BWG

2017:
Nessi 75ws (cs/ws i think were between 400-420 so around 30-32b)

I think inflation is normal but I’m afraid 6months of untouched rose garden might speed up the pure meso inflation.

 

Not need a nerf，it take me too long time solo boss

 

to prevent hogging channels how about there is a 3 minute timer in the entry map that kicks players out and warps them back to the queen npc, so it makes it harder to camp this map with multiple chars. If people had to walk back in it would make it a bit harder to camp the map.

Selling maps like these should be bannable imo, since its actively disrupting the new content. Its great that everyone wants to play it but selling this should not be a thing.

 

After reading the comments, here are some questions to further enhance the discussion. I do not have specific answers for these questions, so please feel free to add questions or input thoughts.

1. If pure mesos is the concern, what rewards should be considered in replacement or alternative?
2. If any adjustments were to be made, is Rose Garden still a competitive option to multi mage farming or bossing?
3. How much adjustments should be made to be considered balanced?
4. How many times can a player enter per week to make it balanced?
5. What should be the mesos gain for the content of Rose Garden?
6. What rewards should be dropped from the boss vs box?
   

 

I’ve been doing rose garden on bs/shad/mm/drk. I only do the bon on bs/shad, because they’re my better characters, and doing even two character’s worth is almost too much for me (I skip bon some days). I don’t think it needs a nerf, and I also think people will start doing it somewhat less over time.

Why I personally like rose garden: I can finally stop stressing about needing to set up multiple mage farm to reach my goals because I either dislike the bosses that give profits (ht), or they barely earn me enough (cwk).

I made multiple mages, including a meso up mule, but after I got the mages up to 1 hit ulu successfully, I hardly did any farming. As I realized, the multiclient mage farming life is simply not for everyone, which is sad because I do want to farm. I wanted things I could do alone to earn mesos, without waiting for people to run things at the same times everyday because my schedule is wack. Rose garden is this for me, and I like that it’s much more accessible alternative than multi mage farming. Farming has always been better than boss runs for mesos, but now everyone can do a bit of it without having 4-6 mages. If it's too good because the exp is also really good, then I rather the exp be reduced instead. I think it's too early to say that nobody wants to do anything else because of rose garden, though.

Mages: I’m really enjoying having things to do on my bishop that actually feels rewarding, because I have never sold an hour of leech on it (I’m 200). I like that high level mages have a use here, and I also think it’s fair that mages do this content better than other classes, because mages are supposed to be good at farming. I mean what else can mages do? It would just be tragic if this content (that requires a lv 170 prequest, going all the way to horrible, horrible el nath, and is limited to 30m daily) is nerfed to a worse meso/h rate than selling leech.

200m/30mins (echo lasting entire bon, gizer, 200 bs. Lower lvl bishops maybe 150m+?) sounds crazy but when you add in the other times, it takes maybe 45+ mins for everything. Leech is indeed worse meso/h, but unlimited in the hours you can do, requires less attention (people seem to watch shows while leeching with perfect rotations, how?? Meanwhile I was sleepy/didn’t tc well in rose garden and get 12 less bees), with chance of godly equips rarely. Farming (outside of events) is way more effort and either less/comparable money to leeching, but farming during events is huge $$$ and every year we can’t stop the multifarming mages meso gains even after nerfing event item drop rate for mages. At least rose garden bee spawn won’t be affected by events/drop rate (?), so at least we don’t have to worry about it unexpectedly crazier during events. Mages always have methods to earn money regardless, it’s just that rose garden allows us to do this without selling our soul/stressing out over leech/multiclient farming. I think mage bee rates are fine relative to their other earning methods (but I'm bishop so I'm biased). I don't care if people want to use their multiple mages for rose garden, though I think it would help pacify people to limit it to 1 char at a time (like in event maps).

I do think it’s funny that mages kill the boss much faster than a well geared character, so I wouldn’t mind much if the hp got increased a bit for mages, though it will just add to the time taken to do the entire thing (and people are already complaining about rose garden channels or no one having time to do other bosses).

Rose box: Rose garden boss has the other drops and nx, but box loot is so rng it’s hard to say it’s gamebreaking. I’m personally at 1/33 cs and 62 powders from 33 boxes, which idk is lucky or unlucky, but that’s like under 1 cs+300m per month per char which is hardly gamebreaking in terms of profit (though idk what that does to the cs market). If you pap/ellin bosses(?) daily and get 5-10k nx a day (I rarely do pap/ellin so idk the 5k rates, please don’t @me for noob estimations), that’s probably 1-2 cs and other goodies in the same time anyway, yet not many people bother to do this daily. The ring is a huge benefit but the rates are really kind of sad since I’m at 2/33 and even got a 0 dex one. It’s still a very good daily (much more convenient than pap/ellin at least) but if you’re only doing the boss and leaving, it’s not that amazing. I’m considering skipping rose garden on drk/mm, because the time taken to finish boss adds up (25-35 min each on these chars), and the rose box rewards aren’t consistently good (I get elixir/pe 1/4 of the time, more rings would be nice). It is definitely still worth doing, but I expect more people will also stop doing it on their characters soon.

 

Can we have a GM try out Rose Garden for classes like BM and then compare it to classes like Hero/Mage/Multi target classes?

I really do not mind mages being the meta for this update.

Mages - best at farming, now they have a boss they can kill in half the time of an end game attacker, has a 30min bonus stage which is capable of earning them upwards of 150-200m/30mins. I am okay with that. I am happy they have a content update they can do without mindless leech selling.

Heroes/DK/Pally - good at multi target mobbing, great at LHC, I agree heroes do fall off at bossing compared to DKs and Pally but still excels at content like LHC/Rose Garden

Nightlords - Excels at everything (including events) except Rose Garden, even at Rose Garden, still better than their counterpart Bowmasters because of flash jump.

Bowmasters - gets into party easily. gets out damaged by other classes even though they are less funded, has no great mobbing skill (inferno and arrow rain are horrible, I would go as far as saying they are otiose)

I have tested out rose garden everyday since release and after getting feedback, suggestions and trying out different meta, I have, not surprisingly come to the conclusion that BMs are once again left in the dirt. (My apologies, I forgot BMs can do stopper farming if u have several mules)

Most profitable run

- Short Golems, 3x gelt, 27 bees (was incredibly lucky at rng, never happened again)
-Short Golems, 3x appo, 18 bees
-Short Golems, gizer, 10 bees

Average run

- Frozen Roses/Short Golems, 17-18 bees (Gizer)

Worst run

-Frozen Roses 13 bees (Gizer)


You can say bowmasters have inferno arrow which is frozen rose's weakness element but its actually so painful to do it for 30mins when you are getting knockbacked 6 times in 6 seconds.

Above are the figures for a pretty funded bowmaster. I hope GMs try rose garden out with an average bowmaster.


So now my question is, do we classify bowmasters as an attacking class or a support class? If the answer is attacking class then when are we making bowmasters on par with other attackers? If the answer is the latter then when are we coming up with content that does not cuck bowmasters?

tldr: I am not asking for a buff or a new kind of content that specifically makes BM meta. I am just pointing out that should the GMs even consider nerfing this update, try it out on a bowmaster.

Edit: After thinking about what I said above for 3minutes, I forgot that GMs dont owe anything to BMs and its mostly the fault on my part for being a solo character bowmaster for nostalgia. I apologise.

 

dude not every single thread in this forum is about balance whine for BM -.-

also if you play for Nostalgia how come you accept Rose Garden but still passive-aggressively emphasize the nostalgic focus of your gameplay.

This discussion should revolve around the big picture and the generell implementation for all classes, if you wanna complain about BMs you should rather go to the skill balance thread and ask for w atk + 100 tbh.

Sorry for my negative tone here but I think its really annoying to have this forum being clustered about the hard life of BM when there is 12 classes and it should rather be about how to place Rose Garden meso wise and how Rose Garden will alter the server culture or not.

It is nice to see different aspects of this content for several classes for sure, but you always go like "and there we go again BM is absolute trash again. Like always. They want us to be trash", and this is just so way out of context imo and it unnecessarily stirrs everything away from a simple note how you as a BM experience Rose Garden and adds in unnecessary toxicity.

You as a BM should not farm anyway near as efficient as a Hero nor a Mage here, since they are farm-focused, but you want to be really good at farming and in the same time really good at bossing and generally like really good at everything at once. BM places as usual, somewhere in the middle, as they do in every single aspect of this game, so Rose Garden is no exception at all, well maybe a little cause this time I assume MM is better to be honest (did not try but should be according to their skill set).

 

Read the end of my post earlier sir you may have understood my point differently

For your ease of reference, I merely wanted to point out that we shouldn’t look at the new update from what meta classes are facing, but what non meta classes are facing as well.

it’s not a complaint my friend, hope this clears things up.

I do not feel like a nerf is necessary

 

we all cant have nice things, glhf