In Discussion Content Rose Garden Nerf/Adjustments

Don't know what can be done about the IP thing and unsure if everyone wants to limit it by that, but we can just remove nets from inventory and the shop (rip ppl who bought hundreds of nets in advance but that's just a few m loss at most, nothing comparable to daily earnings), and make the rose garden npc give us x number of nets when we enter bonus (along with the rose bouquet). Has the small benefit of saving everyone the hassle to check if we have nets before we enter bon.

Some people want to stay in there to gain extra exp, so I'm not sure if your intention is to kick them out of the map after getting a specific number of bees? Or do you intend to limit the total number of bee spawns in a map? (sounds like a bit of a pain tbh). I think limiting number of nets would have the same effect and we wouldn't really be punished for accidentally missing a bee and when no more spawn anymore cos the max bee spawn is capped.

 

I think refunding nets is pretty easy to do anyways.

Worst case scenario they can make nets npcable for 30k and create a new net item.

But I’d rather them not limit the amount of bees obtainable in that method.

I don’t like the recent suggestions.

Why are we penalizing the more funded players for putting in effort prior to the event to have stronger gears?

Yes, they can exit faster, but, if we’re going to nerf it, I’d rather it be lower bee % overall, so the people who continue to invest in gears get rewarded for doing so, especially people
who choose to invest in their mage gears. I like to stay in Rose Garden for the exp, I would just be losing out exp or spend time getting nothing?

• Also, if you cap bees, won’t people just run it on more characters?
• And if you put a hard limit cap on runs per IP on top of that, at this point I think you’ve successfully gutted this content to the point where its a sad former shell of itself within a short time frame.

 

Dropping my own (limited) experience/opinion as a 18X FP player on the road to 200 with about 10 bil investment.

Over about 5 RGs, Ive averaged 35 bees per bonus in room 1.
I TC about 95% of the time and have capped jump/speed to navigate the awful room layout a bit better. With MW20 and Gizer I have 1423 TMA.

I like that RG is a better source of income than leeching, given that it is something I can only do once a day. I think its a tich silly that my average run gets me as much exp as a full 6 man bearwolf pug, but BWs are more prone to be affected by your teams investment rather than your own.

It takes me about 8 minutes to kill the boss with an ele wand 5 spamming Paralyze + Elquines.

Resume aside, here are my thoughts:
I think its perfectly cool for mages to pull 30~40 bees on average. Their strength is mobbing and that shouldn't be diminished. Arch Mages specifically don't exactly have bossing as an avenue so having this be an excellent source of daily income/exp is pretty cool imo. The fact that I can do it on my own time is a huge bonus; Though again I have to kinda wonder if it's *too* good given how low effort it can be to just head into RG and do it, versus forming a party, getting the right team mates, working together, etc, in something like BWs.

As for the boss however, I have no business killing it as fast as I do imo. I don't even attempt to directly fight the boss anymore. I'm spending more time mobbing to get more exp in the boss stage, than actually hitting and interacting with the boss. And I *still* kill it in under 15 minutes. Idk if it's a silly take, but I should have to fight a boss in a boss room, not have it be an afterthought.

Another thing Id like to address that I don't see talked about a lot is the disparity between the 3 rooms. It feels obvious that rooms 1 and 2 were built for arch mages with room 3 being ideal for most others. Correct me if I'm wrong, but given the mob behavior, elemental weakness, and map layout, that feels like the intention here. I don't really like the fact that the FP weak mobs just give less exp and are weaker cause they happen to be the "first" room. FPs already feel like they are a bit shafted in the end-game places they can train. Golems are the best LHC map but are basically locked to Bishops. BWs are a lot more common than Reindeers, but ILs have a better RG and can go to Oblivion in their down time. Bishops also just have the highest exp map in RG (these claims are all anecdotal from mages I've spoken with). I'd appreciate if I could flex the fact that I have at least some continued investment in my FP by having mobs that I can really push my near damage cap on.

All in all, Id say keep the rewards from RG what they are, but up the mage boss health. If mages are going to have the best bonus room, have them have to work the most for the boss kill. As said I shouldnt be able to just focus on killing the mini-golems for exp, while killing the boss as a side-gig.

 

1500 tma bish here, on gizer that's around what I get in room 3. On cheese/other high attack pots I've hit up to 50, probably averaging ~45 but not enough data to be confident yet.

I haven't run on IL yet as mine's not 170, but I have a feeling that's where the real mage imbalance comes in. The map has a MUCH better layout for TCing and hitting mobs, with very little rope climbing. Also, mobs move much faster than the 1st map ones which helps with aggroing and grouping them up. Since they're also ice weak I think this makes IL mages just too efficient there, which is why we're seeing some claim 50+ bees on gizers.

Not really sure the best way to balance this sadly, since in my opinion IL mages should be a bit better (yes I'm biased since I have them, but also in pretty much every other aspect FP beats IL - 3rd job training, getting meteor/blizzard, wand prices, even multi mage farm at IV2), but this gap is just kind of insane, and gives much higher rates than is healthy for the server.

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Here's some proposed changes. Note that I'm a bishop main, but also run on a 200 paladin:

• Split box cs chance between cs and ws evenly, and potentially reduce it slightly
• Reduce boss totems from ~50/run to 25 or 30. This and the box cs chance has just been adding way too many cs/ws to the economy.
• Keep boss nx drops, it seems in a good spot for rewarding but not OP.
• Split ring 30% drops into 30 and 70, and decrease the odds of one significantly. I've gotten ring 30s about 25% of the boxes, which is very high and flooding the market. Imo they should be more accessible than when only source was halloween ghost, but not practically free.
• Increase Ifia's ring chances from boxes. With a 5% godly rate AND people csing it still doesn't seem too fast, and would reward the people running to upgrade gears, instead of those farming for profit.
• Maybe add gelts/pies to the box (since a lot of other rewards should be reduced rates)? Not many, but extra untradable attack potions will once again reward people running on real attackers, not mages farming it.

Bonus:

• If possible, make it so that each subsequent bee has a lower chance to spawn (can you edit the script that consumes the item to add an RNG element here?), and maybe increase initial rates slightly. This still provides incentive to get stronger as you can get more bees, but at a reduced rate. It also helps to even out class difference a bit.
• Nerf the exp. It's pretty much competitive with a full party LHC run. When you factor in all the meso you get too, the bonus is just too OP. I'm getting 170m/full garden (so likely around 140m from bonus alone). Reducing bonus mob exp by 33% would put it at a better place.
• Do something to the 2nd map. Maybe change layouts, spawns, or bee drop rates to make ILs not so incredibly dominant, while having them still keep a bit of an edge on FP/BS
• Do something to buff the first map? I've heard this is where archers and FP go, and archers get low rates while FP gets about the same as bishops. Imo bishops should be slightly under FP mages for balance, so a small buff here would help. Talk with FP mains and see what they suggest to fix it.

Also, what's the intended meso/hr of bonus? What does the community think it should be? I'd love if strong mages could hit 200-250m/hr there, which is a bit above skele/petri gains. The current rates of 300-500m/hr are far too high.

 

The only way people are going to boss again are if the rates for RG are lower than bossing. What's the income/hr for bossing (for the average single client player)? Take that and multiply by ~0.8 should be a rough estimate.

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Yes, of course mages (or anyone else) would love to be able to solo this content with income/hr at or above leeching. Should they be able to? No, because leeching requires a ton of setup/labor/commitment that most people rather not do, hence they deserve the better rates.

If you want to make money doing solo content at your leisure with no setup/commitment, you should expect to have a lower rate.

 

I completely agree, but average income from bossing is anywhere from 0-70m/hr. If we reduce Rose Garden to sub bossing levels nobody would do that either.

Personally I think it's high time for a boss income buff, but unfortunately I don't see that happening, so we'll have to compromise somewhere above I think.

 

Yes most people wouldn't run RG when the meso/hr is balanced (below bossing), but instead of compensating by upping the raw income it should be in untradeables or something else that doesn't affect current markets.

 

Shrug. I've got a 10% drop rate on ring right now.

5% godly rate. 2/15 chance of 6+ primary stat in a godly roll. 0.0067% chance. 50% chance to get such a ring in 1040 attempts, or 2 years and 310 days. That's not even considering that people normally aim higher.

We were clearly never meant to run Rose Garden for the untradeables, so it's probably best to view this in the lens of its clearly intended function, which is making income.

 

I didn't care to participate in this discussion so far, but I just wanna say this:
As a hexa farmer I make more meso doing this than farming yeti pepe, with little to no effort in comparison.
I don't mind rewarding content or encouraging single client gameplay, I think it's good in general, but the fact that this gives raw meso over items concerns me.
I currently have those prequests done on 2 mages, and have 4 more mages that are 3 levels off.
If this isn't changed, I will just be doing this daily on 6 mages and call it a day.
As someone who will greatly benefit from this content - I'm still calling for a change, so I hope that's worth something.

Rose garden in my opinion should be rewarding, but definitely give less totems/exp.
Also, I think u should implement an exchange system where you can trade bonus rewards for stuff like att pots/Ifia's ring/Ifia's earring/Burning Energies etc. rather than bonus reward just being npcable for meso.

 

The ring could be reworked to be more consistently grindable (like EPQ ring) and I think remove the godly roll chance since it doesn't serve any real purpose at such low odds other than frustrate players. Since it has average 1/1/1/1 with 1 slot, basically a free untradeable ROA, it still has great value to grind for. If people rather not CS an untradeable, can make Ifia ring only CS-like scrolls that are also grindable. Just throwing ideas out there...

If we must make income the primary intended purpose and must require it to be higher than bossing, then there are only 2 options to balance this content:
1) rework all bosses to match the level of RG, as in slightly higher than RG since bossing requires more effort
or 2) keep the current rate of RG but limit the number of runs

1) doesn't sound realistic, not only in amount of work for every boss, but also possible repercussions such as massive inflation
2) unfortunately we don't currently have a method for limiting multiple accounts (IP/mac wouldn't work because people can easily bypass that), so unless a system is created to accomplish this, we don't have a choice but to reconsider the primary purpose for RG and make it not income-based alone.

 

Yes, I understand what you are saying, but respectfully it does not answer my question.

I would like to know what your suggestion is w.r.t. how much hp of the boss in RG should be reduced for attacking classes IF they decide to make changes. You asked me why I am asking this question. I am asking because you suggested it in one of your comments above. Forgive me if I misread(?)

I am not going to give my opinion on increasing boss' hp for mages because I have thought about it and I have not come up (nor would in the future) with a plausible solution in this direction which would balance the differences between mages and attacking classes at RG atm.

As I mentioned in my previous comments, I agree with you that mages can do bossing if they want. I am not saying they cannot do more damage to a boss than an attacking class either.

I am just saying there has to be a balancing act for it. If a 10b funded mage does more damage to a boss than a 6-8b funded attacking class I would just say "get rekt by mages". Because the difference would either be negligible or astronomically small.

The reason I, and probably(hopefully) many others who opined on this above is because attacking classes who have around 150-170b worth of gears are taking twice the time (slightly more than 2x btw), to kill a boss compared to a mage who has around 20b(edited from 5-10b) worth of funding or less. I have not done statistics tbh I am just using an estimate based on my own character and timings of mages from people I know.

If mages want to be the best at farming, go ahead. If mages want to be the best dmg dealer at bosses, by all means. Others may take issue with this but I don't. I just personally think there has to be some balance. It is absurd for a 150b geared attacker to take 10-12 minutes to kill the same boss that 20b(edited from 5-10b) geared mages take 5-6mins to do.

For simplicity sake, I will not go in depth on how the price of a single WA is exponentially higher as CGS goes up.

Lastly, I disagree with your comment on "the competitive player complaining about the mage is actually the very same player". I cannot speak for others but I myself do not own a mage.

 

Here is my 2 cents about this whole RG thing

I might be biased as a salty NL main who’s best so far is 26 bees on the first map (echo+gizers, didnt try to stopper/apple yet, is it even worth it for NLs? Would like to know!)

Mind you, I’m very decently geared. Not crazy op like 70 cgs and 87 auf (yet) but got very good range nonetheless. Best NL result I heard about so far is 28 from a guildie. Your average NL I imagine would barely get 15-20 on his best day, and I heard even top BM mains with amazing cgs here are struggling as much as me.

Which is nothing compared to the mage multiclients who pull 50 (or 35-40 if they are sloppy) on each client like it’s nothing, make 1.2-1.5b a day with all their mages from an effortless content alone and chill. I won’t say any names, but I know personally even the best skele sellers on the server do not average close to 1.5b in a day, maybe, just maybe 1b if they go wild but thats not consistent because of how hard it is to do. and some of them do go crazy with their sessions, yet pull nothing close to these numbers. Their words they said to me in our private conversations, not mine. And again, I’m talking about top 0.1% players here we all know who they are, not someone who is just starting out in his leech. By all definitions, this kind of income with so little effort is not normal.

At this point, I’m considering to join the 4x/6x/8x/whateverx mage meta myself solely because how OP this content is.Without it, I didn’t even consider doing that. And again, I’m biased because my only mage I got is a naked door mule which was used as cwk door mule and now will be used as NT sign mule for my fragment farming session, I was never into the whole multi mage farming/leech selling thing, it’s just not for me. I funded myself in a different way which I’m still doing to this day and satisfied with it. But this content makes me reconsider that, because it’s might actually worth it to make some mages and level them to do RG, and on top of that, I heard from my alliance/BL even naked mages with cheap gear are doing great so it will cost me practically 0 mesos to fund this whole thing. If making even 2 or 3 (half) naked mages will provide me as much income (if not more in the long run because of the box+lhc gach+nx gach from the boss) as top skele sellers on the server with literally no effort I might as well do it and call it a day.

IMO, this content is too broken and should be nerfed/limited somehow. How exactly I don’t know but I do know this - If somebody can make like 2-3 mages with minimal dirt cheap gear and make so much mesos from the bees alone (not even mentioning the boss and the box), the damage to the economy is inevitable and it’s already began as we all can see. Almost everything has dropped in value and it seems like it will keep dropping. As biased as I might sound, it should get nerfed.

On a side note, I don’t get the whole “all chs are full” meme. My playing hours are a mess and I always get a ch with no problem no matter when I went in, it feels like the people who are actually complaining about this are the same multiclient mage farmers who just want to make 1b/hour and chill

 

There is only 1 way to correctly nerf rose garden.

Decrease the spawn rate of bees when using a AOI skill like genesis / blissard, just as with red envelopes.

You could also implement that you can only run 1 char per ip at a time in rose garden just as in some event maps.

This decreases the multi client rose garden.

When you decrease the drop / spawn rate overal mages still get the TOP spot over normal attackers

 

Agree on a nerf, and also that feeling of being left behind and having to make those multi mages, it can quickly lead to burn out. I can't imagine my whole relaxation time being just doing rose garden on x characters then logging off. That's why I hope they can consider reducing the bonus time to maybe 20mins or even lesser.

I would however disagree on the channels being not full.

I can only play at GMT+8 night but whenever I tried to search, its always full and like 2-3 players constantly channel swapping to find as well. Of course it won't always be like that, but so far it has been a struggle for me. It is a weird mix of not wanting to be left behind, but also feeling like its a drag to secure a channel + spend 40+mins, then repeating it on another character (I'm only doing on one currently).

 

There are always multiple ways to look at things. GMs should also consider the rose
box reward situation with CS prices going out of control.

That being said, I highly doubt ppl are duo mapping. Otherwise yeah, I would heavily consider looking at bees from AoE mage attacks.

So this is the big boogie man argument always. Mages average 50 like nothing. You also even note people can be doing this on half-naked mages.

I have friends with 1550 TMA without pot, that is like 150 TMA on top of skele 1 hit, who usually average high 30s low 40s. They have hit high 40s to 50s only a handful of times, and these are insanely funded mages.

Most of my mage friends who 2 hit skele only average high 20s to low 30s, which is still great, this is still significantly higher than most attackers.

You need really good gear, rotations, consistent tc, and fuck ton of luck to even dream of hitting 50. It feels like people who dont mage bonus (myself included), are using anecdotes from people they know and its spiraling. First it was mages average 50 on good gears, now its mages average 50 half trying on half naked mages, next it’ll be mages average 50 butt naked drunk.

 

Thanks a lot for pointing this out, I was literally just having this conversation earlier with my friends, wondering who exactly are these people averaging 45-50bees and clearing the boss in 5-6mins

I've been running consistently on lvl200 bishops and lvl 17x I/L F/P (gizer,mw20,echo)
- While I've gotten 40+ bees if RNG is kind, I'm realistically averaging between 30-35 bees.
- My clear times for the boss are between 8-10mins with summon + angelray/paralyze/chainlightning.
- I'm fairly certain I'm clearing the boss/bonus efficiently, and not afk-gaming.

The rates for mages are inflated when compared to attackers, and admittedly needs some balancing, no one denies that. But please please stop quoting average 40+ bees and 5-6mins clear times just because you've heard of someone who had those rates, or saw one screenshot of someone achieving those rates.

Even if those people exist they're probably 1.6k+ TMA clean and/or on cheese/bananapie, and for the record, 1.6k+ TMA clean at lvl200 easily costs over 20b and definitely not 5-10b... wtf

 

People also glance over the RNG inherent to bees. On my ~1300 TMA (after buffs/pots) Bishop I've had one run where I got 2 bees in the first 14 minutes, and on my Shad I've had a run where I got 16 and 17 bees respectively during the 1st 10 minutes. There's no way you get 50 bees without getting lucky on bee spawns.

 

Can people stop acting like Helen Keller can multimage 50 bees per client on duo I/L? And using this as an argument for mage or I/L specific nerfs?

With 0 before/after screenshots too?

It's 35-45 WITH paying attention and 3-hit barring extreme RNG.

 

Bishops are apparently using a luring strategy across the map due to the long platforms and highly mobile monsters: they are not doing the same thing as arch mages. This might also explain the wild variation in bees that only they seem to get since this would be heavily influenced by spawn RNG and TC success rate.

I/L map has some layered platforms in the middle with about 3 sniping spots that you can do some brief climbs or teleports to get to (you do need to climb and jump a bit to hit top floor at some parts), but you can't stay there all day because spawn will collect at the extremes (and of course you will have to chase bees).

FP, I need 5 more levels to try it but they definitely seem to have a lot against them and I can believe the one FP who posted.

A sound nerf suggestion was already in post zero. Reduce frequency to 2x a week. So many problems solved, no nasty class wars. Increase Ifia's ring drop rate if you want.

 

My apologies for quoting 5-10b, I do not have a mage and based my comment solely on opinions of others. Kindly let me edit my earlier comment.