Pallies actually out DPS warrior brothers in a 1 vs 1 combat situation which is pretty much everywhere except few locations (Cwk melee boss, HT 3 parts). Hammer is extremely useful in zak arms and in HT. Their crash makes them more desirable than hero or drk in HT or zak body for quick runs. Only when the standard of the gear reaches end game, the dmg cap limits pallies to a point they'll slack behind other warriors. If a pally has equal funding as the hero hitting 2x 50k or Drk hitting 30, 40, 40ks, it will hit like 150k per line thanks to elemental boost.
Paladin's are better at Toad, Showa bosses, Krexel, Anego, Kacchu Musha, Black Crow, Papalatus, Horntail heads, Bigfoot. Sure they're disadvantaged at arms, but they still have weapon cancel and deal more damage at all 3 Zakum bodies. I even find them quicker at grinding in temple of time.
i think someone did an experiment on the time temple grind test before between the warriors, didnt go well for the paladin. Also, if im not wrong, paladins benefit least from SE because of their one lines. even with hammer, they lose out in zak arms compared to the other warriors, yes , the crash is really really good for bosses that weapon cancel. also, if im not wrong again, paladins have a huge min max damage, so in 1vs1 situations(fully buffed w SE/ no buffs), im not sure. May i know what you think are the reasons behind this : R> Drk/Hero for zak R> Warriors (pref hero/drk) for zak R> Drk/Hero for shaolin boss Duo. R> Drk/Hero for cwkpq R> Warriors(pref hero/dk) for cwkpq Paladin friend whispers : paladin wanting to join host1 : Oh hi ... paladin... dam this gonna be slow host2 : Your a warrior?! welcome in!! oh wait a paladin? whats your range? (indirectly saying you need to be good range as a paladin to join) host3 : Sorry, we looking for dk/hero (clearly stated warriors in mega) this is really sad. they suffering out there but we have people saying "they pretty strong now they dont need any more balancing! " "They one of the top dps now"(By one of the guys in this post)
My own experience with Hero's vs Paladin's at Temple of Time shows me that they're nearly the same end game while Paladin's are much stronger at 120-180. -Zakum arms are the shortest part of the boss run so Paladin's may actually be better than Drk's and Hero's -If they actually made Shaolin weak to ice then Paladin's can literally solo him at a much lower level than most classes -Hero's and Drk's are much better at cwkpq, they have to be better at some things Most people aren't even up to date on the forums, so it'll take some time for people to notice how strong the buffs for Paladin's are.
Theres just one buff, elemental weakness on bosses. meanwhile shadowers and buccaneers received a ton of change. with the recent Buccaneers' Evolution from SI mule to Chuck Norris, i think there needs to be a small balancing for some classes like Paladins, and perhaps the warriors or other. "Hero's and Drk's are much better at cwkpq, they have to be better at some things" , please tell me you are joking, they are better at 90% of the things! the way you are putting this its like paladin is this powerful being that the other classes ought to have at least something good at. HAHA. Why are we even finding excuses saying paladins are godly, powerful and require no more balance and not recognizing the truth that our fellow paladins are suffering from not just the bossing side, mobbing, needing to memorize boss weaknesses and basically harder to play but still at the bottom, and no one wants them. reminds me of a show i watched, 3 rich guys(us) walks pass a group of homeless people(paladins), one of them threw some bread for them Back in the hotel, Rich Guy 1(me) : hey i think they need more food. Rich Guy 2(other classes) : Nah man they doing pretty good now! Rich Guy 3 (other classes): Yea dawg they actually having a better life than me! Guy 2 and 3 bursts into laughter. How about berserk requirement ? if pink bean launches, and berserk is at 50%. the future of DKs gonna be in jeopardy (unless someone educates me and tells me Pink bean hits 10k, and even so, what about our DK friends that didnt wash hp? give that a thought and please dont say things like what we are already saying about paladins are gods and strong, recognize the truth!)
Paladins are better at krex, anego, samurai, zak, and also equally desired at HT (because of wdef crash and if ele weakness is implemented) than heroes and drk. I'm not sure if toad has an ele weakness, but if they do, then paladins are certainly stronger than heroes and drk in toad too. Which 90% are you referring to?
Buccaneers are now Bruce Lee level. they maul bosses and snack on warriors dps. the true class that was left in the shadows are paladins followed by shadowers then buccs. these 3 classes.
Do you really believe that a DK that didn't HP wash would ever get to the point where they can pink bean?
That makes abit of sense, since now Buccaneers have SI, outdps who knows how many classes, i felt heroes out there are abit angry about this : 1) Heroes - No Buffs, lower dmg than bucc 2) Buccs - SI , higher damage than all. im not sure but these what ive been hearing around.
Paladin's are better at grinding, Zakum arms, and 1v1 dps than Buccaneers with all these changes. I gave you a list of bosses which Paladin's are better at than Hero's and Drk's. Zakum, Anego, Kacchu Musha, Black Crow, Bigfoot, Bodyguard A, Bodyguard B, The Boss, Castellan Toad, Krexel, Headless Horseman, Lilynouch, Dodo and the list goes on. Tell me what are the obstacles in which Paladin's heavily face currently? And describe those obstacles in great detail.
i dont know, the first thing i thought up of was... hey pink bean hits over 15k, doesnt this mean our DKs cant pink bean with berserk? :O . so i came up with the berserk requirement suggestion. hahaha then again this fun discussion!
Pink Bean has one attack that most warriors will inevitably get hit by that hits for 18k damage (without achilles) but it has a very distinct sound and animation that it's pretty easy to pot before taking the hit. Most of his attacks hit for 11k-ish damage and can be avoided if you know the attack patterns. However his touch damage is like around 23k and I don't think our damage cap allows us to kd him. So it might be risky trying to zerk him and he just casually walks into you haha Spoiler: Pre-big bang Pink Bean 1:35 for attacks 6:30 touch damage death
I honestly do not know where did that list came up from. lets do a rough estimation(alittle inaccurate but the point i trying to get across is kinda there i guess(i hope), DK - 45k x 3 avg w apple. Hero - 45k - 45k , 55k,55k damage with apple , 50k 50k avg Paladin - 80k -140k blast w apple, 110k avg and i might be wrong w the min max, it might be 70-140. idk, if someone were to experiment this , we might actually get to see it. and moreover, Paladins benefits least from SE(correct me if im wrong!). So im thinking of how you came up with the list is. you took blasts max damage, and compared it with heros/dk max damage. :-( Conclusion : if paladins were so godly like how you describe them to be, our fellow paladins wouldnt be sitting in the corners crying now, recruitment teams wouldnt do this class discrimination with paladins. no one picks up that rock on the floor for a reason. because it has no value. no one wants that rock for a reason, because either 1) they do not know the value (not the case,maybe afew) 2) it only burdens
Drk and Hero damage are near each other at 168-169k dps while paladin had a dps of 192k, ~13.6% higher. In these examples, the hero and paladin were both using ST and had a clean range of 11.3k while the drk was using a sky ski and had a range of 12.4k. They had SE buff and no SI buff. All these were examples with heartstopper and not apple. Paladin is using flame/ice/lightning charge and is assumed to be hitting an element effective mob. Damage cap was also accounted for in the calculations. Discrimination exists because paladins used to be weak. Many don't understand the significance of these small incremental buffs that have been happening behind the scenes. And I hear the elemental weakness in some boss isn't fixed? I would reserve judgement on paladins until those issues are patched up. We cannot make the same mistake of bigbang and call for buffs just because we "feel" that some classes are weak. There needs to be concrete evidence and methods to balance classes to avoid ruining the balance of the game.
Yes @Faerhoral, you just forgot to include elemental charge damage + elemental weakness bonus to your numbers. Those are a good estimate for neutral bosses though.
Since we're on the topic of paladins and heroes.... Paladins deal more damage as compared to DK's and heroes. HOWEVER, this is only true up to early-late game funding levels. As your gear improves, (I'm talking about a perfect Stonetooth with 50+attack in cape/shoe/gloves), paladins are limited by something simple: The number of lines on Blast. Paladins will hit the 199k damage cap easily with things like Demon Elixirs and Sharp Eyes, while heroes and DK's spread their damage over 2 or more lines. They are also bad at mobbing... look at that pathetic range on ACB. Buffing BW's might be a solution for low funded paladins, but will ultimately prove to be a futile. It just allows one to reach the damage cap quicker, and we'll be back to this problem again. So yeah, paladins win in 1v1 against other warrior classes, up to a certain point. This is not considering the vast amount of game knowledge one has to possess, switching elements on the fly in a single boss fight. To bring us back to topic, I honestly think the classes are pretty okay right now. I'd suggest splitting the lines on Blast into 2, and making rage stackable with attack pots.
this is an age old debate but damage cap does not reduce a pally's dmg significantly. In the calculations above, the paladins/heroes are using 150 claymore, 19 cape, 17 shoe, 22 glove, 8att mon, while the drk is using a 139 ski and the same att gears as hero/pally. They are all on demon elixir to exaggerate the worst case for paladin (hitting damage cap constantly). They all have SE, SI and echo. The dps difference between them? paladin still edges out by ~11.4%. A slight decrease from 13.6%. And yes, I factored in damage cap. Spoiler: how to factor in dmg cap? I'm just gonna describe the process of how I did it 1. calculate the range when the damage hits cap 2. based on it, calculate the frequency of damage cap hits ( let's say a range 10000 - 15000 and you hit cap at 14,000 and above; it means you are hitting cap 20% of the time) 3. readjust the range due to the above (it means the average range is, instead of being 12,500 is closer to 12,000 or less) 4. do this for all calculations including with SE (need to separate the calculations in fact)
My Hero can hit 140ks with an Apple while my paladin without glove, cape, and shoes can hit 160ks on apples. I've played the paladin class and everyone wanted me for zakum even though paladins are terrible there, yet I was often rejected in krexel runs even though paladins are ridiculously strong there. A lot of times people are just ignorant to the pros and cons of a class and that can have more of an impact on getting invited to runs, but most people are willing to try if you flex a little in whispers.
I don't necessarily agree with adding extended duration for shadow partner, however maybe being able to move or attack while casting shadow partner would be good for nl.
