Alternative game balancing idea - buff boss minion spawns

Discussion in 'Closed' started by Fr0zen, Oct 9, 2020.

  1. Fr0zen
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    Fr0zen Well-Known Member

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    with plenty of discussions going BUFF THIS CLASS PLZ, ITS SO WEAK COMPARED TO NL
    or NL NEEDS TO GET BUFFED TO OUT DPS CORSAIR PLZ I WASHED TO 30K
    and everybody be asking BUFF ARCHMAGE SINGLE TARGET SKILLS, ITS IMPOSSIBLE TO BOSS WITH THEM
    balancing the game seems to circle around single target DPS against bosses

    but why increase damage of the classes when the bosses can get buffed >:D>:D>:D>:D
    imagine bosses having double(or more) minion spawns
    that will annoy the heck out of pure ranged runs, making warriors relevant in parties, so there's a reason to stop the NL/sair + SE meta and actually play other classes
    complaining that warriors getting whited by any ranged attackers at any given moment? try a pure ranged run with ultra buffed minion spam, instant alt+f4

    and with the stability improvements of the game client, casting mage ults don't really cause mass dc anymore
    so with the high minion spams, archmages in boss runs might actually work without having to rebalance the class for bossing
    this way, the bossing scene will be more diverse, where each classes' original strengths get to shine :o:o:o

    ranged classes -> single target DPS, great for taking down the bosses main parts/body
    warriors -> semi DPS + semi mob clear, gets the job done but it takes time
    mages -> super anti mobbing, but then the role of bishops gonna be ultra high value in bosses tho, plz nerf/ add holy resist/immune to more stuff

    (i smell angry reacts coming in ~f8)
    edit: typos cuz i have not slept for a good 18 hours
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2020
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  2. ImVeryJelly
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    ImVeryJelly Donator

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    Corsairs ignore minions.

    I want a minion that body hit you for 200k damage, and can be stunned/frozen/(cough cough hypnotized cough)/doomed.
     
  3. Fr0zen
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    Fr0zen Well-Known Member

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    make homing beacon limited time debuff on enemy + add cooldown >=(
     
  4. UrbanJuggernaut
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    UrbanJuggernaut Donator

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    I wouldn't want to see this retroactively fitted to existing content, but I think it would help the diversity of bosses to have more situations where multitarget damage is more valuable or at least as valuable as single target going forward with the release of new content.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2020
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  5. Jooon
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    Jooon Donator

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    Theres already Royal Guard, Core blaze & Horntail with these mechanics.
    Usually these minions can be controlled by the bishop. Be it muled or not.
    Kill it in 1-2 shots, or aggro them and lured away.
     
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  6. LichWiz
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    LichWiz Well-Known Member

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    This would simply shift the meta away to sairs, further nerf bowmen damage, and make it so multi target classes will have to babysit their NL for better times, which would mean they'll get less exp for the boss (they'd hit mobs more than the boss).
    So overall effect would be: sair seriously buffed, nl would need aoe cover, bm/mm nerf, multitarget classes that run with nl will get less exp, AM possibly made into mob clearing mules.

    Seems kinda far from your desired outcome
     
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  7. Fr0zen
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    Fr0zen Well-Known Member

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    in the current meta sairs and NL are the premier classes in the game (pure dps)
    bm/mm are sub dps but with SE as their main selling point (semi dps+support)
    warriors are optional party members that are already used to babysit ranged classes (lower semi dps + semi mob clear)
    AMs are completely unusable in the bossing scene, mule or not (mob clear)

    nerfing homing beacon to stop sairs from getting unaffected would be one way to solve the problem of sairs getting buffed

    even if BM/MM are nerfed to absolutely no damage, SE mules already exist and are quite common, so i don't see why a BM/MM nerf would be a concern for the regular bossing people in the current meta
    that being said, the close ranged multi targets of BM/MM can be more valuable in high minion spam conditions, which would make their roles more of sub dps + mob clear + support, which is quite unique

    what i would like to see is more variety in the bossing scene instead of 4NLs/sair + SE + BS party being the "optimal" party
    so there are 2 ways to making other classes more favourable in bossing
    1. buffing all other classes damage and realise that some classes become too useful with their high damage + other support skills/etc., and the cycle repeats with buffing and nerfing endlessly
    2. changing some of the boss mechanics to break the metagame, so that the pros and cons of each class will be brought forward, instead of the current meta of 1 button highest damage wins gameplay
     
  8. LichWiz
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    LichWiz Well-Known Member

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    Lol sure, throwing all bowmen mains under the bus will surely get you the support you are hoping for.
    A roundabout solution that hurts classes that weren't your target nerf more than the classes you tried to nerf in the first place does not boad well for your suggestion. If all bowmen will be able to do in raid bosses is cast SE and use arrow rain/eruption, then you instantly alienate all the people who want to play the class instead of muling it and playing by the meta. Unlike a conventional nerf to damage, this kind of change will either be complety meaningless because the spawns weren't buffed enough, or a complete class killer because all archers will be able to do is smack their bow at mobs that will kick them around. There's no middle ground here. A suggestion that honestly seeks to create bossing diversity shouldn't alienate such a big playerbase for the sake of the a minor inconvinence for the DPS range classes.
     
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  9. UrbanJuggernaut
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    UrbanJuggernaut Donator

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    Rather than adding mobs or making them stronger, I'd like to see more bosses like Zakum arms/HT (where multitarget classes can hit multiple parts of a greater whole) or Shao/CWKPQ bottom (where there are multiple smaller bosses grouped up) as we move forward. Adding mobs to screw ranged and nerfing Corsairs to be screwed as well is not the move.
     
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  10. OrcaGel
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    OrcaGel Well-Known Member

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    Why even bother changing corsairs? They're already stronger than nls and bms in most situations, but people don't play them because of their concentration requirements.
     
  11. Fr0zen
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    Fr0zen Well-Known Member

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    im not suggesting an obscene spam where the only skill that can be used is arrow rain/eruption for the archers, but more of there being less incentive to jam the main attack down
    also, archers do not have to worry too much about smacking their bow/xbow if they are using rain/eruption as the skills can be used at point blank ranges
    the only affected are those doing jam key single target play: namely NLs, jam key BM, jam strafe key MM (why tho snipe is good), paladins jamming blast (give more love to the other skills plz the class has a pretty varied skill set), buccs jamming demolition (same as paladin, lots of mobbing skills getting no love)

    i mean if we look at the usual bosses that have summons and are more or less on the daily rotations of players

    papulatus: summoning those self destructing minions (moving ones not the super explosive 8k damage ones)
    BM/MM: using summons for close range cover, use rain/eruption when blocked heavily at close range, or just wait for the close ranged ones to self destruct
    BM: hurricane should be able to control quite well when there is space since the arrows are individually shot
    MM: piercing arrow stonk

    zakum: the summons are only at the body stages
    BM/MM: they usually float around, so rain and eruption would be best to control the mobs
    getting knocked around by the minions and smacking bow non stop? just press the skills that were there since 3rd job

    krex: even if the minion spawns were multiplied by 10x, i don't think anybody will feel it lol

    horntail: only the wyverns are of concern at the upper body, but even if doubled in spawns, they are still quite dispersed, the floor getting flooded with mobs is not a new sight
    BM/MM: since HT hits quite often, getting kicked around would not really change much, just that there will be more annoyances to jam key gameplay

    i really don't see why the archers are gonna be alienated, but just a change in gameplay from the current 1 key single target DPS meta, which is what i would like to see

    if there is gonna be anything, there will be a need for a more varied team instead of pure single target DPS focus
    right now sairs and NLs = good for everything
    but by having their weaknesses exploited more, a pure sair/NL team would not be ideal
    so for more mob control, the team setups could look more like this
    1/2 warriors + 2NL/sair + SE + BS (tbh i see this quite abit in the current meta already, so not too hard to form this type of party)
    1 warrior + 1AM + 2NL/sair + SE + BS (heavy mob control)
    3 warriors + 1 NL/sair + SE + BS (alternative heavy mob control)

    buccs can replace warriors in these setups, just that they will have to use their mobbing skills outside of demolition
    shadowers can do the same, but they will have to spam boomerang step to help the ranged DPS, instead of the usual dark sight -> assasinate ->bstep combo (though it would still help but less)

    as for buffing the spawns, just to not make bishops value even higher than it already is (cuz HS+ they have mage ult), and to make the minions actually annoying so that a varied gameplay is required
    - all spawns are aggressive, much like how aggressive bosses like pap can change target to a non attacking character
    - summons are holy immune, there are hardly anything holy resist/immune to holy element in the game, but plenty having fire/ice resist
    - this way the minions need to be killed instead of lured away or ignored (look at current zak runs, minions are left to the end of the run and ignored)
     
  12. smileycat
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    smileycat Member

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    I'm gonna throw out an idea I've seen from another developing server, that you can also branch out some possible ideas from here.

    That idea was to pair up weapon cancels with mob spawns, since weapon cancel is probably the most uninteresting thing nexon has ever brought to bossings, that players just sitting there to wait out; on the other hand, the mob spawns are often ignored by players because they don't do any impacts. So combining those two - bosses would be invincible while the mobs are alive, forcing players to clear out the mobs. The mobs will spawn less often (so doesn't annoy hella out of players) but come with more numbers and higher hp at once. This should benefit multi-targeted classes as they'll clear quicker; single targeted classes should be able to clear as well but just less efficient.

    Also this would eliminate the need of bringing cr mules (you may not agree with me, but imo it's weird they exist in the first place ~f7), but then pally will probably need to be buffed in some other ways.
     
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