Class/Skill Improved MM Feedback Thread!

[v73.3 was a massive buff to MM. Pierces bugs were fixed, Blind works on bosses, Puppet carries 20k HP, +10 ATT arrows, Final Attack has a manual mode, and... Soul Arrow... still saves you arrows technically! Party!]

howdy again, freaks

in the spirit of the more efficient feedback forum, i bring you an improved conglomeration of extremely modest but what would be robust possible ways to overall edge the MM class ahead slightly

Spoiler: Old Woop

first order of business, we mm see the return of snipe working through weapon cancels. folks in charge seem to still believe its important to remind us that even though they still consider it a bug, it was reversed. its was, and most definitely isn't a bug, just like ninja ambush and HH still hitting through cancel isn't a bug, it was the nature of the skill, intentionally flagged to do this originally when 4th job was released.
so we rejoice, reclaiming our very small, very own special trait again, of seeing through the armor of weapon cancel, taking aim, and landing our snipes into that one weak scale on boss monster hides. a true victory for the class, even if nobody but us cares.
ok now, grandstanding aside--

its my opinion MM do not need any att or dmg buff outright. they have lots of skills and abilities already that can be improved upon/buffed to round out their overall dpm output without raising att or dmg.
so, thinking caps on, and xbow scopes out~
*****

snipe!

• giving snipe a short autotarget effect that lasts slightly longer than snipe's cd (so at max, autotarget effect lasts 6-7 seconds). this helps focus mm damage in bosses that have lots of spawns, like zak and ht. the autotarget is short so you still have to try to juggle your strafe/snipe timing like normal to make it work, but smooths overall dpm. on the other hand, sairs bullseye lasts indefinitely (until cast on another target or target dies), and increases all damage a ton. I am not suggesting a bullseye effect, just a short autotarget via snipe, since only bosses survive it. this is a perfectly beautiful and fitting effect for this class and skill, and gives mm a slight dpm boost over time

the other side of the coin is that BM rip through mobs much much faster than we do. hurricane is so fast it works excellent as a "mobbing" skill even though it's single target, and retargets the boss very quickly. we only reach our peak with SI, so this slightly bridges that dynamic in our own MM way

• snipe possibly shattering damage reflect (and possibly dealing no damage when it breaks reflect?)? would give it and mm a good late game use actually, when it commonly falls out of use/rotation. no class has DR counter, so this could see a great niche opportunity for MM
• Spoiler: dreamier

  and in a very dreamy world, the animation would get a slight update. snipe looks like a normal arrow fired after you get mastery, it's barely noticeable. I think a perf addition would be a crosshair graphic at the end of the xbow, the same 4th job gold style, that then disentegrates backwards towards you, like from the velocity of the attack, that's all. I wouldn't say no to some vapor graphics around the snipe arrow either

blind!
[✓ IMPLEMENTED ]
[check the rad thread by @Geyforlife detailing Blind's avoid assist in bossing parties]

• giving blind the ability to, at lvl 15/21/max, etc, to affect bosses, at 1/3 effect. this might sound totally op until you read the numbers and know how blind works. at max level, it only reduces a mobs acc by 30%, only a 40% chance to proc, the darkness lasts only 15 seconds, and works as an active buff, so you need to buff yourself with blind for these conditions, it is not a passive effect like venom. (This translates to -10% acc on boss mobs for 5 seconds at max at the proposed 1/3 effect).

in normal mobs, this isn't that good a 4th job skill to put 10 levels and 30 sp into, and nobody maxes blind early, if ever (although i love it).
in perspective, shield warriors can passively block 15% of *all* attacks, with guardian, their own shifter, and have 10x our normal HP.
mules would not be able to abuse this because they would have to keep the buff up, constantly attacking to proc+maintain the buff, and they would need to be lvl140 at least to have max blind+se . Furthermore, the effect could be less abused by mules if the character needed to be the same level or above the boss, and if the acc reduction only affected the MM

this gives mm with blind a decent, but conditional non-muleable avoid buff that has to be maintained, locked behind a non linear build, which would give MM a nice DPM evening over time.

• blind/MMB also reducing or diminishing the chance or effects of darkness would also be rad and apropos as we are snipers/markspeople
• On normal mobs in actual application, this skill is still pretty bad even at max level. It doesn't translate to much avoidability vs reg mobs. I have it at max and it's pretty hard to notice. I would certainly take a buff, it would help vs NT mobs, but would much rather see the boss application. Both would be helpful.

on the flipside, let hamstring also affect mobile bosses at the same 1/3 reduced rate (-20 speed for 5 seconds at max). both suggestions are indeed 100% possible and take these very underwhelming/useless 4th job skills to a nice late game QOL and relevance, not even a little OP, giving archers rewarding class distinctions and rewarding support for investment


advanced mortal blow!
"seizing the opportunity, the marksman's attacks vs a falling boss monster are even more destructive. increases damage when a boss is below (X)% HP, as well as passively increasing rates to the third job mortal blow"

• requiring max mortal blow (and added into Marksman Boost in it's last 9 levels, 21-30, or maybe a 10 SP skill in 4th, or packed into MM's Sharp Eyes, or 10 sp skill in 3rd but still requiring max mb, or give marksman boost 40 SP to max), [Advanced Mortal Blow] buffs mortal blow's stats and affects bosses (or mobs immune to instadeath), by increasing strafe/all attack skills when they are below X% HP:
  • critrate 100%?
  • increased crit damage
  • ignore w.def?
  • temp passive w.att buff vs boss?
  • some combo of the above?
  • increased mp cost to all attacks when AMB applies (except snipe)
  • no insta death, obviously.

would be an interesting dynamic to boss runs and MM output levels while keeping them balanced, as the spike is at the end of battle.

• extra dreamy: a purple hp bar overlay on boss hp that marks where AMB would begin. or dark red or indigo slider effect added to strafe's animation to visually cue when this effect procs, or damage digit color is changed to purple on the player side to indicate

max mortal blow required (and maybe max final attack as well)

• buff to normal MB rates as well. or:
  • sniper's MB naturally has higher rates than ranger's
  • thrust is lowered 10 levels and MB is raised 10
  • or sniper's MB simply is AMB, and rangers is just MB, the archers are extremely similar enough

AMB gives mm an interesting buff at the end of boss runs only, keeping them from overpowering runs early or lapping other classes, and adds to their lethal accuracy style of class, while still rewards geared players (opposed to the fixed snipe damage). this could help raise them somewhat in endgame (170+) where they are still easily overpowered by BM, and which is when they fall behind due to snipe losing rotation (which snipe autotarget would mend--not cure--as well)

• on the bm side, have bow expert buff infernos damage and dot, and give phoenix dot, with phoenix dot ignoring cancel

pierce! (and general charge attacks)
[✓ IMPLEMENTED ]
first i'll just talk about pierce. pierce is supposed to be a main attack for MM. its a pain to really use. everyone acts like its no big deal, but its not as easy to get the most out of and use when you can just strafe/snipe instead. the problem is not the charge time, but the weird mechanics of charge skills in general. if hit when relaeased, you do nothing and lose all that time setting up, do no damage, and have to try again or go another route. its not very reliable and for being one of the few charge skills in the game, this one is intended to be a main attack for MM. i never maxed it because its too difficult and conditional to use, and just maxed frostprey for passive boss damage. lots of potential fixs:

• slightly lowered charge time?
• fix the hit/release bug on pierce and all charge attacks (big bang, monster magnet, grenade, etc). these are very held back skills because of this bug (this is 100% possible to change)
• allow to fire in the air or while prone. this skill needs the flexibility to be used in these conditions because of the charge time, your position to execute changes constantly while charging, running, jumping and makes using it very very conditional and difficult unless you're just at some flat map, which still can be difficult (this is also 100% possible to implement and very modest modifications)
• lower/remove the minimum distance to fire pierce, or give mortal blow a huge boost in rates if it procs using pierce (if the min distance cannot be altered)
• [Alternate Function] with one key press, pierce begins charging, and it doesn't need to be held down. With a 2nd, it can be released. Inbetween this, you can attack with other skills, heal, but you will be slowed down by half and have mp drained continuously while holding. This way mm would juggle their three main skills tactically, and get much more use out of pierce

Two more hot pierce suggestions:

• Pierces still charges like normal, same amount of time, but acts like chain lightning? Not super wild like CL but not 100% straight either/ has some up/down range but still detects sequentially (doesn't go backwards). This mainly gives it a bit more use in zak (arms), HT, as well as mobs that jump/fly
• [Alternate Function] Pierce passively charges. It's essentially on cd at all times but you can still fire it any time, but depending on how soon you use it again, will change it's damage. If you immediately fire another piercing arrow, no charge, lowest dmg. But if you run and jump and pot and F5, assuming it's been 4 seconds or whatever the max charge time is (where you get the swirling gold light under the fully reeled back and loaded xbow graphic), then it'll be full dmg. This is better than it simply being on regular cd like snipe, because, like iron arrow, it's really nice to have if you need to use it immediately, especially on mobs that don't freeze. If on a hotkey, you could see if it would be fully charged or not. Alternatively a small icon could appear above your char when full, or it could appear along your buffs

frostprey! (and general summons)

Spoiler: 4th job bird improvements

phoenix
-give phoenix DOT like inferno at 21+, chance for dot to ignore cancel, works on bosses only at max. a modest chip buff for max bird and like @Joez has pointed out, archers in general have fallen behind a lot compared to other attackers over time


frostprey
-mobs frozen by frostprey (but not blizzard) recieve a damage bonus, or a weapon defense ignore flag, or an increased insta kill rate by like 3% like mortal blow. bosses hit by max frostprey could be affected by something such as:
-dot after 21?
-ignores elemental resistance? or can do neutral damage to bosses that resist ice?
-dot has chance to ignore WC?

Also I remember a rumor about snipers that there was a chance to insta kill blizzard frozen mobs. Was that true and does it still work? If so, have frostprey slightly improve that rate (+1-3%)


the birds are late maxed skills, so this would provide small but helpful late buffs to both classes especially when they can be totally useless due to elemental weakness or just how weak they are in general

Spoiler: general summons and how to override them

allow FP and all summons, including octo, gaviota, smokescreen, to be on buff display icon timers that can be manually cancelled if needed.
[this isn't possible with the client limitations, however, I think this is the perfect workaround to solve summon cancelling, since we simply can't right click them or cancel them if we need to, like if they accidentally get summoned around pianus bombs, or in dojo, or around mobs we don't want to aggro:]

Spoiler: 3rd job summons

• have ranger's silver hawk attack the nearest mob in range, when possible
• have sniper's golden eagle attack the farthest mob in range, when possible

This eagle/hawk summon mechanic distinction differentiates the extremely similar 3rd job archers and fits their roles better.

puppet!
simply change the appearance of sniper's puppet to the wooden training dummy sprite. this helps in boss runs/pqs/parties with multiple archers to keep track of your puppet, and gives a nice and simple distinction

• alternatively, a puppet buff icon would be nice for the same reason

final attack!
archers final attack is pretty bad. the problem is you additionally animate to execute final attacks, but, for archers especially, that hang time on ranged skills is worse than warriors, it can slow you down quite a bit, and the damage, if there wasn't an animation, would be ...decent. but there is so the overall damage isn't good in this world where we hold special attacks down constantly.
the other side of the coin being, what is the downside then? well, I mean, not all skills need to have a sacrifice to max them, except the sp, they should be worth it no matter what. In the case of buffing FA to sometimes just add a line of damage instead of execute a separate animation and do whatever damage for the time lost, it would automatically be part of everyone's meta build. So, maybe add 10-20 more SP into FA? Otherwise, make it pay off down the line with MMB to specifically aid MM?

• if max FA, (and/or max MMB as well. this way it specifically aids MM?), 10~15% chance to proc another line to, or splash line on/after strafe/all attacks except snipe/FP/DB/blizzard, with no animation/delay, but costs an extra % of MP when it procs
• Or ~10% chance to proc an extra line to strafe if max FA and Hands stat is over a certain total (some determined total that would be roughly near 160/170+). Same with Hurricane but ~2.5%ish chance to proc an extra line.

focus!

• buffing maxed focus avoid (not accuracy) boost by 10-15 each job avancement. so if maxed, when you adv to 2nd job, it gains a 10-15 avoid boost, etc, to 4th job, being +40-65 extra.

however giving blind bossing relevance, and concentrate an avoid boost would be preferred!


2nd/3rd Job Distinction

Spoiler: sauce

This sounds like a nitpicky thing to bring up, but the conceit of wanting more class distinction is due to the fact that both classes are so extremely similar all the way to 4th job that even the different 3rd job names don't really make sense (a ranger doesn't burn things, a sniper doesn't freeze things, call me crazy but makes more sense to switch 3rd/4th job names, since the only convention separating them are essentially fire/ice in 3rd) . And in 4th job, one job obviously outclasses the other (bm>mm), which makes the lack of distinction frustrating, and an easy choice for players to ignore or wave away the xbow branch

Xbowman are slower attackers, (even in first job), iron arrow is very limited and outclassed compared to arrow bomb which can home/target, splash, and stun, and in 3rd job the classes are identical except for fire and ice. Sounds neat but Rangers can stun with bomb, which is the same as freeze, and inferno, ranger's fire attack, has a nice dot boost, and arrow rain has better vertical range, while they can still stun all over horizontally to compete. So the class points still favor to bowman for sure, from 1st to 4th, currently

Going off crossbowman's style through time, laying in wait, calculating, I think in 2nd job (or Sniper), reducing 10 points in Final Attack (from 30 to 20), and adding a 10 point skill that assassins also have:

[Endure]
Type: Passive
Description:
Additional recovery for both HP and MP even while hanging still on a rope or a ladder. The higher the level, the faster the recovery time, along with recovering additional amounts of both MP and HP.
Level 10 (max): Additional Recovery of HP +80, MP +30.
[note: this is weaker than max assassin/bandit/warrior Endure]

Or instead of Endure in 2nd,

[High Focus]
Pre-Requisite: Focus level 20
10 levels, replaces focus hotkey, +40 acc, +40 avoid at max.

Or possibly have Endure as a 3rd job skill (lowering thrust, or hawk levels) Or High Focus a 3rd job skill. Both could be implemented/switched, or just one or the other in either job.

As well as a few existing tweaks:

• making sniper's mortal blow a bit stronger than ranger's
• having sniper's summon attempt to attack the farthest mobs (better for full mob wrangling), while ranger's attempts to attack the nearest (better for stopping the closest mob from reaching you),
• different sprites for Sniper's puppet
• and the many suggestions posed for 4th job/endgame

Very minor changes and skills but both endure and/or high focus feel like very fitting/appropriate and minor tweaks to the overshadowed xbow class.
For such extremely similar classes, of which Bowman have all the favorable distinctions, early to end game, it's very easy to see why the MM population would be so low. The only real difference is weapon choice from 10-120, which is unfortunate, and after 120, the charts definitely favor BM, so it's a no brainer. Class color/distinction, as well as function, go a long way for the vitality and viability of a class (and the fun!). Indistinction is the primary reason for many of these MM threads and suggestions: MM being behind BM in charts, offering nothing different to the party that BM doesn't already. Fortunately 4th job is somewhat different in style, but BM is much easier, simpler, and stronger still. These aspects are important to compare and contrast for the class as a whole, and why all my suggestion are more than simply about damage boosts. Even if BM and MM did equal damage, people would still play BM more and the populations would stay the same because BM is easier/simpler and MM offers more difficult gameplay compared to BM, offers less to the party, and is weaker. Even just the blind buff would go long way for the class alone

miscellaneous QoL!

• somehow, someway, reduce the "you can't use this skill yet" msg during snipe's cd? It wipes my chat log trying to perfectly time (spam) snipes, not a great thing in bosses (or in general)
• snipe doesn't always kb pianus? maybe his animations override KB, or he was adjusted, but he never gets KB like he used to. snipe should KB everything
• strafe able to kb more than once? MM is the absolute worst class to hunt bf. strafe has *the worst* rhythm to pin, it's nearly impossible, most fire right through him, if they do hit, he's only kbx1. hurricane can just pin him until you have to rebuff, while each hurricane arrow procs KB . KBx4 would be amazing for our main attack, but I'd be happy with even just x2 and even if it was packed all the way into MMB
• darkness resistance (not immunity), +20%? I mean come on it just makes sense lol. could be inside mmb, snipe, blind, even marksman's SE (give BM a slow resistance to be square). drks get all ele dmg resist, daaang (alternatively, each class gets a status resistance in hero's will: mm/shads/drks get darkness resist, NL get weakness resist, Hero's/buccs get stun resist, mages and paladins get seal resist, bm/sairs get slow resist)
• slightly farther max distance buff from MMB. another one of those things that just feels right for this class. waiting til 150-152 (when you normally max MMB) is a fair payoff for a slightly farther max distance, especially for having the slowest ranged skills, and ranking so low on all dps/dpm charts. Makes sense for them and isn't an unfair advantage considering their skills and current maps
• mentioned before but mortal blow rates should be higher for snipers. slower, stronger, mechanical weapons fired from lethal snipers, would be worse point blank. the similarities between the 2nd/3rd job archers are simply too much lol, distinguish them please. Give crossbowman (2nd job) Endure, or advanced focus (lower final attack, or soul arrow, or PKB)? Arrowbomb is just so dang good. Iron arrow is much more restrained, can't splash or stun, and can't target lol. Xbowman could use a lil pat on the but for flavor and distinction, same in third
• dragon's breath shouldn't proc mortal blow, both skills clash with/cancel eachother. if MB has to proc on DB, boost MB rates even more in this instance. small QOL
• Lvl1 blind is simply awful. Its almost useless until lvl11, after your first book. a small buff that still scales the same to max would be great. and as mentioned, even max blind is hard to notice on regular mobs. a reconsideration to these rates would be really worth the time investment for this skill
• For Bowmasters!: Concentrate boosts base DEX+ instead of w.att, and avoidability, as well as its reduced mp effect, and can't be dispelled. Our siblings fairly deserve a skill that doesn't clash with their attack potions (just like Hero's enrage)

...and for fun, the absolute dreamiest:

~~~


ok cool, hope this inspires some interesting discussion and feedback, thanks!

[these are all independent suggestions/concepts for consideration, this is not an all or nothing list. this post gets updated to reflect any changes or new ideers, come back in to check it out and talk some marksmanship]

 

Under* NOT POSSIBLE:

 

Interesting, but I wonder if this wouldn't be a simple solution?

 

This is not possible, any formula calculation is untouchable in our current client, without a costume one, we can only change skills. I'll tweak your suggestion by saying it should be added for the marksman mastery boost skill of 4th job.

Same issue, we can circumvent it via either pushing that hp as a passive to a skill, or adding it to the 4th advance hp boost

 

Please Give this class a skill similar to
shadow shifter / guardian
Around 15%~30% build in avoid.

 

thanks, did not know that

my blind suggestion would do that under conditions and I think it would be good because it would have to come after either mmb or snipe and not be passively op

 

SE mule buff hype!

 

A buff to pierce sounds reasonable

 

I would have to disagree with this statement. From what I experienced as a 17x marksmen myself, the core issue is that under end game conditions the class is very lacking in comparison to its brother counterpart: bowmaster - this might be because marksmen is a good early game and a noob friendly class (snipe hits the max damage cap regardless of your range/dex/skill level). I personally think many of the skill changes suggested would be a nice quality of life change for the class but it does not really solve the root issue.

What I would like to see changes in:
1. Lower Snipe cool down (4 seconds to 2 seconds? @ max level)
2. Straight % damage buff to Strafe
3. More attack and/or mastery % to Marksman Boost

 

I quitted for over 6 months now. but no I think marksman is fine right now in terms of dmg.
people have to realize that marksman is a support class. (sharp eye + dmg)
I see they have already buffed a lot in the past year. snipe cooldown from 5-> 4 second .// Marksman boost +5 att and increased strafe % dmg by 5% i think? i cant remember

The only thing they should do is give us back the Snipe on cancel weapon attack during boss.. that was a huge nerf...
we used to be able to use snipe through cancel weapon attack from bosses.

 

This was already re-added as of Update #68

Everyone has their opinions on it hence why there has been multiple feedback threads about the current state of Marksmen vs other classes but I respect your opinion on it nonetheless. To me, Marksmen seems like the sloppy seconds no one would pick. Why would anyone pick playing Marksmen aside from its uniqueness (?) over a Bow Master?

 

Idk, I disagree about their damage, they are really strong with si and apple when well equipped. All the suggestions I made would indirectly improve their output too. They don't suffer from overall damage imo

 

To pick MM is a Mega Mistake I don't even know why this class existed
Regretted immediately after washing my MM

 

Why would you play something to 17x to cuck yourself?
I love MM, lots of unique skills. 3rd job archers are the most facsimile

 

This is pretty off topic from the feedback thread but, Marksmen is one of my last two attackers aside from my Dark Knight since I hit level 200 on the rest already. My long term goal is to eventually have a 200 in each class

 

Cool input thank you so much

 

This. I have a level 200 marksman myself, it was my very first attacker on this server but it was not the first character I levelled to 200.

And I will be frankly honest; the last 20 levels were painful af. I felt like I was being carried by my friends whenever I brought my MM to boss runs and in the last few levels basically just leeched it in HT. I had minimal temptation to play it even after borrowing @Momo's 148 dsc for the final few levels bringing my MM to 10.5k range at 19x and was infinitely glad for this long, stretched out journey to be over. Not to mention during this time was when snipe cooldown was bugged for months.

My 14x corsair's dps at krex is similar to my MM at 200, to put things somewhat into perspective. I know there are many arguments against balancing changes because all of them trend towards post-bb, but like John said what is the benefit of playing a marksman at the moment beyond its so called uniqueness?

 

I'm trying to bridge exactly that because I don't like the trend of just tacking attack to everything to solve a "bad" class, I'm trying to make the current skills and abilities of marksman heightened to give them a boost indirectly overall instead of a flat increase. It gives the class more identity and as a whole feels more complete, not like some bad version of bm, as everyone already obviously thinks

 

i would like to give some opinons on several feedback threads now and i think that most of them have to start with: royals is not gms and it never will be, the server itself is 3.2exp 4x drop, has custom things(godly system for example) and has free acces to nx for everyone(not only for cosmetics, for various things) also internet era is not the same, we have information, acces to mechanic formulas etc, etc, not to count that, i kinda feel like most game comunities were less competitive and chill that it is now, here and everywhere, so no, we can never have THE EXACT SAME FEELING that we haved exploring maple world and different jobs back then.

OK, why do i say this here? i would like to stop the "MMs make no sense to begin with" back in the day with a server that was 1xexp,wich mean you needed to be really hardcore to even reach lvl 180, even 150 was quite an acomplishment(rmeeber that most lvl 180-200 of those times were heavily account sharing) and having over 30att gears and perf weapons were something extremely rare back in those times, so yes, MMs DO MAKE SENSE AS A JOB(back then at least)

Hurricane at lvl1 beats strafe at lvl30 https://royals.ms/forum/threads/new-source-nanys-bowmaster-guide-road-to-lord-sniper.121936/ , but even with that i have a really hard time seeing a bm outdmg an MM at lower lvls cus of snipe, in a server where u pretty much stayed from lvl120 to lvl 140 FOR MONTHS, sound pretty good for me if u ask. Now lets go back to our reality...Royals....

This is a server where:

1.-low and mid lvl content has little relevance(mostly bcs, even if u try to play instead of leech all the way, u will be lvl 150+ in no time)
2-we have acces to really high att gears and weapons
3.- we have all the info in our hands(i bet many bms did used booster b4 doing hurricane back in gms)+we want to provide actual value to our runs, it isnt about just hang out with friends anymore.

-With all that being said its quite obvious that MMs STILL need a tweak.

Personally i think making them just match in terms of dmg with bms isnt really apealing..looks like gms were everything is the same just with different looks, whats the point?

Uniqueness is a valid point just if it has an use, so i wont mention anything new here(pretty much all ideas i can say have been mentioned alrdy) but its important to count them in order, you dont want to increase their dmg? well personally i have been seeing ppl getting tired of playing bms just bcs its unconfortable to play.....some sort of high avoid or stance could work, weaker and more buff dependant, but way more confortable to play, seems like fair to me.-"what if this encourage muling it?"..ermm i mean whats the big deal with that? if u ask for 2-3 4th jobs skills to be maxed..its not like EVERYONE gonna make one like that just for muling.....

another idea could be making pierce dmg dependant on how much u charge it, but dont cancel it when u get hitted, that way u make MMs in some sort of semi multitarget dmg dealers, similar to shadowers

3rd.- like every SI dependant job/weapon should be weaker than his brother witouht SI, but stronger with...looks like the simplest solution(bcs i dont think raising 1 speed on xbows is a good idea tbh, it reduces the relvance of SI wich is alrdy little and dont make mms good, just make them less dependant and still weaker for no reason)