Class/Skill Chief Bandit's Shield Mastery < Steal Mastery, & other suggestions

ok, the conceit of this thread is this:
chief bandits and shadowers do not use "shields" the way warriors use shields (defensively).
along the way, the bandit class stopped using defensive shields altogether, and use secondary daggers basically. even if this server sees PB and reverse/timeless shadower shields, it would still not affect the khanjar meta in anyway whatsoever. and unfortunately chief bandit's shield mastery in particular is by far the most useless skill among a list of unfortunately ranked "useless skills" (if you know me you know i believe no skill should be useless and no build should be linear, and maple is just more fun like that imo).

the most common suggestion for shield mastery is to passively increase w.att. and for a lot of reasons I'm against this change, but the most important being that this would make shield mastery mandatory, and redundant when the att of the khanjars could just be buffed instead of force the players hand on such a mandatory new skill and buff nobody would pass up since khanjars are as important as your dagger (and I don't feel shads or CBs need a khanjar or a passive shield att buff, they're very strong)

[link to potential warrior shield mastery improvements and potential replacements as well]

i make a humble suggestion to change chief bandit's shield mastery to steal mastery, because if anything this is infinitely more useful than shield mastery, and a million times more fun. the whole point here!
even if shield mastery was buffed in some way, it would likely be overkill for shad's tankiness and avoid, even with their shifter nerf(s) recently.
and we are chief bandits, after all! we love loot
[Steal Guide link]

[Steal Mastery]
"greatly increases the success of steal, the amount of mesos that the chief bandit can steal, and the abilitity to steal from multiple monsters at once! [other possible effects here]."
-Required: Level 25 Steal (Band of Thieves level 5, Disorder lvl 10?)
it could:

• buff steal chance up to 50~70?%
• increase value of stolen mesos, or
• chance to steal double sacks of mesos when stealing
• chance to steal from two mobs (maybe 3?) in range at reduced success rate and possibly reduced damage for additional monsters (so this would no way contend with BoT as a viable mobbing skill, because max steal only does 100% dmg and it's got really short range, same as reg attack). chance to steal from second nearby mob: -15%? from current level rate. or no reductions, just trying to be fair :^)
• icon above monster showing if they've had an item stolen? (a treasure chest with an x through it as a symbol, etc.) if an item is stolen, you're unable to steal anything else from a mob, even mesos. this is a great QOL if you steal a ton and have a large group around you so it's easier to keep track so you don't accidentally keep stealing, like the poison or silence animation over monster's sprites
• different sfx when an item is stolen than when mesos are stolen (great QOL improvement! two different SFX for meso steals and item steals would be wonderful) also a great QOL in big mobs with lots going on, and stuff on the ground, bit more immersive as well
• Chance to cast disorder when using steal mastery? 70%?
• I'm personally not into increasing the damage, but I wouldn't be against seeing the damage going up to like 120%? If you item hunt a lot with steal, doing less damage is generally better
• Another interesting concept is steal doing no damage at all. Maybe steal mastery has an increased chance (80-90%) to not damage or chance to not aggro a mob
• Steal mastery's stolen mesos could also have an extra punch of damage if using meso explosion. maybe they could be golden or dark sacks to differentiate?
• to dovetail with the last bullet, able to steal mesos from bosses (not items) to help with ME/PP damage in 3rd job
• passive boost to open chests (not in bonus rooms) faster?
• Or, pack these effects into existing Shield Mastery ("additionally with shield mastery, the chief bandit is able to master their dexterity and increase their stealing prowess even while wielding a shield, improving your success rate to Steal, as well as a chance to steal from multiple mobs at once" or similar additional text to Shield Mastery's description)
• avoidability buff? +20 avoid for learning to be more dextrous? then again, if royals does do anything to CB's shield mastery, it will probably be adding a passive avoid buff between 20-40 extra avoid, keeping shield mastery the same otherwise while appeasing the "where stance?" bandwagon shadower crowd
• Alternate skill names: Heist, Chief Heist, Treasure Hunting, Treasure Mastery, Chief Steal, Raid, Chief Raid, Steal Expert
• OR, your hands stat can naturally increase your steal mob counter to +1 mob every X amount of hands, since hands will scale based on your combined total dex/luck/int. This could simply affect 2nd job steal, or steal mastery as well. Perhaps hands stat also simply increases the meso amount, and slightly improves chance to steal, and steal and item
• [New] With Steal Mastery, can use Steal from Darksight, like Assassinate, but does no damage, for even greater increased chance for successful steal, and greater chance for it to be an item (takes you out of Darksight as usual per cast), increased MP cost to Steal

anyway, sounds cool to me. steal is a very underused, wonderful and defining skill as it is, but i do not think that 2nd job bandit class should get all these perks. more appropriate for chief bandits. steal makes for an amazing asset in ironman chars, or early 2nd job life when hunting items or quest items, as well as monster card collecting. a small buff to two (maybe three) mobs, slight increase in steal chance and little QoL would be wonderful


alternatively, shield mastery could still become a passive defensive skill that could have relevance within the chief bandit's style:

[Misschief/Dizzy Counter]
"passive. quickly counter-attacks a nearby aggressive monster's attack that results in MISS, confusing them with a disorder strike, de-aggroing them"

• Req level 5 Disorder, Chakra level 5, Assaulter level 5
  • Level 1: +1 avoid, 45% chance to counter at 90% dmg, 70% chance to confuse (de-aggro) a normal monster. -17 MP
  • Level 20: +20 avoid, 90% chance to counter at 115% dmg, 90% chance to cast disorder (de-aggro) a normal monster -19 MP
• works with your natural avoid stat (so shifter won't proc this counter)
• only procs vs. aggro'd mobs, so you can walk/sneak through maps still without provoking them accidentally
• counters each miss only if the monster is in range (basically touching you). the disorder ghost animation procs if you do confuse them. nice additional defensive/avoid tech perk when being mobbed and MISSed (not via shifter) by normal monsters. Kinda like if powergaurd only worked when monsters missed :^)
• alt skill names: Misstify, Misstique, Mirage, Mirage Counter, Counterfeit, Countertrick, Chief Counter, Trick Counter, Countershift, Counterspin", etc but let's be honest Misschief is perfect in about 5 different ways

[Counter Steal]

• And to possibly combine both steal mastery, and counter concepts together, a [Counter Steal] skill replacing shield mastery: Passively boosts your current steal, and if a nearby mob misses you naturally (not shifter) from touch damage, you counter attack with a passive steal (% chance to steal and damage depending on skill levels). Only works on aggro'd mobs. Counter damage is less than 100% of your range. Allows steal to be used from Darksight, but reveals yourself.
  
• again, essentially the opposite of powergaurd, procs if you don't get hit (natural miss, so it scales well) with your natural avoid to 200.
• Req max nimble body, 5 Disorder, 10 steal?

[Dagger Maestro]
If the character is not equipped with a shield type item, passively increases dagger proficiencies, such as avoidability, ignore defense chance, counter-attacks, Steal levels, chakra speed, & pickpocket.

• A somewhat catch-all to boost many abandoned bandit skills and an alternative to khanjar meta, but would be slightly below khanjar users in most situations
• Buffs steal rates and can use steal from Darksight, buffs pickpocket coinage (and coins from PP get buffed dmg when bombed/ignore w.cancel-- not self-dropped), decreases chakra's cast time, can counter touch damage misses with steal, can counter during chakra, natural avoid boost, and a 2% chance to ignore defense, 10% chance to cast current level disorder passively with single target attacks (reg attack, double stab, steal, SB, assassinate), chakra gives your next attack increased damage+mastery
• Req max dagger mastery, max nimble body, 10 Disorder, 10 Chakra
• (In 4th) If no shield, increases damage to all skills/ignore def when in smokescreen, +5% avoid to shifter, can steal-counter from shifter

Yes this sounds like a big messy alternative to khanjars/att shields, but this satisfies the current and totally fine khanjar meta, while giving a divergent shieldless path (since shield mastery pretty pointless), buffing a handful of other aspects of the class to hopefully come close to doing near damage to khanjar users with a slightly different playstyle but have no shields, losing out on 30+ w.att to play even more concerted/risky style (chakra healing for buffs, tank more hits or play much closer/on bosses for more counters, counters proc PP, more PP/ME synergy, damage boost when in smoke)


Misc. Shield Mastery suggestions and more~
These could replace shield mastery, or ninja ambush. NA is bad, but it does have a very weak niche use during cancels, and if you have a beast NL in your party that also drops NA once cancel goes up, they can rack up even more dot during the whole cancel, as well as the lucky shots that bypass cancel sometimes, which they have an easier time doing because their main skill hits quickly for 6x. If it has to stay, I'd suggest removing or reducing the delay when casting, and maybe increasing the damage 15%. In normal situations, because the damage and range is so bad, and because NA can't kill mobs (another consideration), it's not worth casting because of the long delay and how weak the damage is and the damage you lose in the delay, bossing or grinding.
Dagger maestro would also be a great 4th job skill to replace or in addition to NA.

• Meso Up, same as hermits
• Advanced Endure
• Poison Bomb or Flashbang, ala nightwalkers or dual blades, req lvl5 ME
• Confusion/Advanced Disorder, chance to passively cast disorder+slow with your single target attacks (reg attack, double stab, disorder, steal, SB, assaulter, assassinate), reduces monster's w.att and def up to -50 if both are maxed, req lvl10 disorder
• Monster Bomb, ala DB, nerfed, req lvl5 ME
• Field Medic, cures a normal status effect on yourself (not sed), CD 10 minutes at max
• Springs, when in weakened state (disabled jump status) can double tap jump button from ground to jump per your current jump stat, or downjump for MP cost. 5 second delay
• Night Charge, chance to randomly apply one status (can't stack), either disorder, silence or darkness to a monster when active, req lvl10 disorder, costs -100 HP+MP. skills that normally stun (assaulter, bstep) are replaced with one of the random afflictions instead of stun, can stack with your venom. blind/slow from other classes (mm/mages can stack, but not other CBs), doesn't work on bosses
• Tracker, increased chance to find quest items and healing items when killing monsters, using steal, and opening chests (not in bonus rooms), or plants/rocks/objects
• Changes to Ninja Ambush as mentioned above
• Venom being able to toggle on/off would be a huge QOL improvement, it clashes badly with steal for very low hp mobs
• Assassinate (XX) - being able to use Assaulter at any point during XX would be amazing for HT, being stuck in the air casting XX can be a lot of trouble, you can't change trajectory towards head A/B/C or wings as the animation follows through, often causing a bump into body parts, and sometimes head B, and if there was a dispel right before or midair, it can be RIP. Removing the auto final blow mini-assaulter animation when struck with a status during XX would be a great QOL as well. Increasing Avoidability while in Darksight would be nice, like +30 at max XX?
• Assaulter being a hair faster and having an ignore def perk but lowering it's damage slightly would help it scale a bit better end game
• Pickpocketed coins simply having a higher base multiplier and perhaps factor in monster level) When bombed than self dropped coins would solve the PP obsolescence/scaling issue. Self dropped would obviously still have much higher damage potential though.
• Chakra is lovely, butt-saving (and potion saving) skill. Many ideas on it. Mainly it be just a tiny bit faster, and/or offer a small buff or ignore X def to your next attack to incentivise incorporating it into your rotation

Vanilla Shield Mastery suggestions

• Increases avoid +2~40?
• Increases avoid while in Darksight?
• Chance to counter mobs that touch with Disorder?
• Increases w/m def +60?
• Chance to decrease KB range
• Raises KB threshold to be above *1* with a 40% chance damage (will add this to my warrior thread as well)?
• Chance to stun mobs that deal touch damage at a %?
• Increases w/m defenses when in Chakra, increases m.def when in Darksight?
• Chance to counter with Steal? Or add in some previously stated Steal improvements (+steal rates, won't target mobs already stolen from, can steal from Darksight (but does no damage, will aggro the mob)?
• Boosts Endure's rates
• Poison/Darkness resistance +30%

Vanilla Steal suggestions

• Will detect mobs that haven't been stolen from first. Huge QOL for big mobs and tracking/time saving?
• Can use from Darksight with buff to rates, but deal no damage (will still aggro a mob), and pops you out of DS like assassinate? Increases stolen meso value, and chance to steal an item? Increases Steal's MP cost
• Small buff to steal rates on mobs that aren't aggro'd ("first/suprise" attacks)
• Increased rates when using behind an enemy (if not possible, see above bullet)
• Increased rates on stunned enemies?
• Different SFX for item steals than meso?
• Icon to display mobs that have been stolen from (a small outline of an open chest? Or bag with an X through it)?
• Stolen mesos have increased damage when bombed?
• Quickly flashes the face when an item is stolen, like with shifter?

~~~
And here is a long post about the concerto of CB skills, skills in general, and the potential trajectory of old skills, and the concept of stealable-only items, as well as other class distinctions:

Spoiler

To be more thorough, the chief bandit class has an excellent skill synergy and feel, perhaps of all the classes. First I'll just list the chief bandit skills in order (from hiddenstreet):

Shield Mastery
Chakra
Assaulter
Pickpocket
Band of Thieves
Meso Guard
Meso Explosion

Quite the flavorful new arsenal from the 2nd job bandit. I have strong and loving opinions on all of them. The bandit class was my first and favorite, (great armor and weapons, and couldn't wait to steal free items from monsters!), And very fun and self-fulfilling.

Shield Mastery
To stay on topic for shield mastery, the main alternative suggestion for it is to raise attack either flatly or in some %/gradience like the vanilla def buff it gives. It's obvious why people want this, and why it will most likely be the first and only consideration, but I think it's problematic and overpowered.

First, if this is the change, then this skill will instantly be linear meta and mandatory, no question, in an already busy 3rd job SP allocation, though it would be possible, but SP demands aside, it gives no player a choice in the matter, since att shields are worn by all bandits (since def and def scrolls are largely useless compared to attack, there's no contest, unfortunately, although imagining a game where it would be difficult to choose would be amazing)

2nd, huge, unnecessary power creep. Shadowers are powerful, highly geared shads are deadly. Decently geared shads can easily do 300k+ with one assassinate combo. It would also warrant all other skills to be redundantly nerfed just to buff SM, because it would on average boost weapon attack +15 or more for all 80-120+ khanjars users (and possibly the timeless thief shield, whatever it's stats may be...). IMHO it's a very selfish, op and problematic change.

The alternative would obviously be a more defensive skill, or something completely different. Since shads are already tanky (from meso guard being so op, and shifter), it's hard to grant them a skill that makes them more defensive that 1 won't be instantly meta that everyone wants, or 2, won't already buff them in a way that makes them even harder to kill.
That's why my Misschief/counter skill was a humble alternative, it only works with your natural miss/avoid (so it scales fairly over time rather than be instantly OP)
And also, why it being something completely different, such as steal mastery or also sharing hermit's meso-up skill, etc, on top of the fact that these would be secondary rated skills up for player's playstyle rather than linear sameness. Divergence with perks not necessarily even equal to the meta is still extremely rewarding and attractive for players, as opposed to a simply useless skill (as it currently sits).

Chakra
Amazing for dojo or emergencies (if you're in the habit of using it) especially once you have shifter. It's pretty slow, and is pretty random in how much it will heal, but it can and will definitely save you if you put it to use. And combined with other available skills (Darksight, Assaulter, smokescreen, shifter, disorder, bstep stuns, all with their own defensive capabilities), chakra can save you all the hp potions you like, if you play it safe when grinding or farming (bossing unfortunately is not really worth it, I wish it could in some way).
Nonetheless, a very cool skill in the toolkit for chief bandits, especially for DIY solo artists, ironmen, or emergencies (pet broke, outta pots, or need to conserve pots like if you only have potions that are both hp/mp and need to save them for mp)

could it be a touch faster? Sure. Could it be a bit more stable recovery at max? Sure. Could it be somehow more functional? Possibly. Would love to hear other player's feedback before I share any of my ideas


Assaulter
In the two-dimensional world of maplestory, before 2nd job classes had rush *coughbrawlercough*, and before 4th job (these sound like trifle qualifications but life does and did exist before 4th job), Assaulter is possibly the most powerful, mobile, and defensive skill at once. You're able to phase through to the other side of a mob while doing damage. In a 2D game, moving through them alone is incredible. It's fast, it's defensive, gives you a huge strategic advantage, and can literally save you from falling or help you reach otherwise impossible places.
All around just an amazing skill. My only gripe is that I wish it was just a few milliseconds faster, although I do firmly believe the current speed is completely fair and appropriate for it's possible advantages, and that it could ignore defense, but do less % damage, so it's still slightly more useful in bossing if you use it and in late game in general, although it does scale fairly well and any damage at all is a huge perk for the mobility advantage alone. IMHO much better than flashjump, and very appropriate for the chief bandit class. Very well done


Pickpocket
In another thread I've made all kinds of suggestions to help PP scale and be a bit more helpful for the class without it being OP. A newer, simpler alternative to all of them would to just make ME do more damage from PP coins instead of self-dropped. I really don't think ME was intended to be so obscenely powerful via self-dropping, and that this problematic function is still exploitable to such an easy, powerful degree, it totally eclipses PP and it's own intended function. People say it's hard on your hand or wrist or whatever, it's not, you're just not in shape or you have arthritis, but no skill should function like this regardless, it's unsporting to any other skill or class in this regard, meta or not (I swear I'm a huge advocate for this class lol)

Band of Thieves
A chief bandit sends his loyal bandits out to help mob in battle. It has great flexible range and splash, casts very fast, and is quote strong. What's not to love? It can even outpace assassinate overall when combo'd with bstep on HT when cleaving his arm/wings/two heads (plus mobs). Great original sprite artwork as well.


Meso Guard
The most op defensive skill in the game, halves all damage for a scant meso cost. I'm on record saying this skill shouldn't be as powerful as it is, 40%, even 30% is still reasonable. I don't say this to support HP washing either, I'm against that as well, it just makes shads much too tanky especially once they have shifter. (Shifter may have never even been nerfed if MG wasn't so OP. Vanilla shifter for shads is 40%, 30% now in royals). It requiring lvl5 chakra is a good touch though, I'd argue even level 10 chakra or higher to unlock it.


Meso Explosion
As mentioned before, I think the self-dropping potential ruins the function of pickpocket, and makes the damage output of this skill way too over the top. It can out perform any other skill damage-wise depending on how fast you are. Not that there is anything wrong with the self-dropping aspect, but it blows pickpocket, and all other third job, and possibly 4th job skills out of the water because of the damage potential formula ME has. Extremely unpopular opinion but I hope this makes sense, just trying to be fair.


These skills all work amazing together. Unfortunately Shield Mastery is just outclassed because of the attack shield/khanjar meta that took over the original defensive shield intention, it has no function, even originally it was very poor, bandits didn't have wrist guards even, only panlids or maple shields or stolen fences, and not until the timeless list would shield mastery give a valuable def buff, sadly after the khanjar additions. Although I'm not entirely against removing the khanjars either, as much as I love them, or making the choice between khanjars and other optional defensive shields a difficult personal choice

Stealing, being the bread and butter of bandits, and thieves, hello, not the Uber anime ninjas we all think of with NL or DB, the classic RPG trope is what the class is all about, and a very valuable skill for resources that other classes didn't have (imagine a world, long ago without ultispam farming, and sigh rapturously), which 4th job thieves were blessed even further with through taunt (showdown, originally), which I think is a well designed skill: boosted droprates at the same cost to your damage (making monsters minibosses of themselves), so it's not outright OP, fair and square, and you can't get the benefit if the taunt/challenge kills the mob.

Steal gets (understandably) lost in the mix by min/maxers. If it were a mobber in 2nd, it would be instant meta and nobody would care about the steal aspect, just the damage/speed and they would also be getting the benefit of a mobbing steal very early on (and there are reasons we gatekeep how fast classes can do certain things).
Having spent a lot of time with steal, it is a very valuable skill if you apply it right when item hunting, especially later combined with taunt. Making steal mastery an additional complimentary skill on top of 2nd job is because I think it being a deliberate use skill important, instead of the fast, super mobbing/farming skill everyone expects/demands.

The most common argument against using steal is the tired "just kill more monsters faster". This is ulti/farming brain rot. The one major reason and advantage you would use steal instead of just killing, is that steal guarantees one item drop from a monster's loot table, if you get an item before the monster dies, you then get additional drop chances from their death loot. It sounds trivial but it pans out if you apply it, and there's no better maple feeling than stealing the item you're hunting for from a still-living mob, it's a treasure hunting high for sure.
It's especially amazing for mobs with low drop rates, like cwk mobs, slow spawning mobs like largos or tauros, or mobs with very small loot tables


Anyway, all this isn't necessarily a huge long appeal for royals or anyone to make my suggestion (steal mastery/misschief/counter) a thing, but I think in the larger picture of the class, with the original class theme and feel in mind, I think it's ultimately more in line with the trajectory of the class in relation to the skills that came later in 4th (4th job skills often broke or left the other skills behind, intentionally or not).

The way to think about it is basically this:
- forget that big bang happened (easy enough), because it scrapped almost all the beloved original class content.
- Now imagine gms continued through time, and there was little to no powercreep or game breaking mechanics (such as miracle cubes, washing, broken classes)

Then ask yourself: how would these original 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th job skills evolve and slowly rebalance themselves in relation to eachother over time, as opposed to scrapping them all entirely or only focusing on 4th job skills, and how they fit and serve the class and class distinction, and social mmo play?

That's essentially the gist of all of my skill feedback, not necessarily what royals or anyone should do, but: how would the original game evolve through time in a way that makes sense to the original content, and not thinking of the job advancements simply as higher tiers that aren't reflections of lower jobs/where they came from (as said before often job advancements often make previous skills and investments totally obsolete, unfortunately, instead of rewarding the player's choice and flexibility)


One totally offhand suggestion that I would definitely consider if I were an old nexon dev: having some bosses, or mobs involved with special quests, stealable-only items/quest items/components, like how some 4th job quests require a warrior w/o stance, etc.
Similarly, requiring a hermit/NL to use shadow web to hold/capture a mob/boss/special mob for a quest or win/damage condition, all kinds of class specific aspects like this would be a lot of fun and only add more flavor while preserving and improving upon the inherent class diversity

related:
>>Guide to Stealing

>>thread on pickpocket, meso explosion, and more

>>the mysterious hands stat!

[no useless skills!]

 

Shield mastery could be useful if it doubled your overall weapon Def (600 or so) rather than the 5 or 10 Def from the shield itself.

 

If this was before the khanjars meta sure, but shads are tanks already, so making shield mastery more defensive or adding avoid etc is overkill and redundant

 

It could work for shield warriors I think

 

that, I totally agree with
https://royals.ms/forum/threads/general-warrior-feedback-useless-skills.160831/

 

I don't disagree with your statement that the skill is useless, on the other hand...

I'm against this suggestion as this is too custom of a change. So far from what I can tell, there are no custom skills implemented like the one you're suggesting, and there is a hard line drawn from what is feasible as implementation. Core gameplay should be preserved to a certain point (the good and the bad), and it appears that MapleRoyals has a firm stance on what that means.

I am however in favor of tweaking skills, as we've seen with skill balances for certain classes. For example, nerfing NL's alchemist skill or buffing the damage of an existing skill.

That being said, I'd like to respond to one of your statements:

You say steal is underused, but then you give quite a number of things it can be useful for. Maybe I'm not understanding your point here? I believe the skill is perfectly fine the way it is. However I do believe a slight buff to the steal rate is harmless, given that you can equip a mediocre weapon and attack many times. So perhaps that is something to look at.

Finally, I like to look at it this way: If the skill in question did not exist from the start, then this thread would not exist, unless your aim was to buff the Steal skill from the beginning and you're using this useless skill as some sort of compromise. Without Shield Mastery, I would still call the Shadower class complete; the class has a plethora of useful and versatile skills.

 

Shield mastery is just utterly useless, swept away by the khanjar/att meta, sadly.

Nobody uses steal. I'm just a complete freak and use it all the time because I love it, and it can help. And I've talked to looooots of people about it. Nobody uses it or cares. Both things can be true, and are.

I don't think steal in 2nd job needs a buff.
I don't think royals will rewrite shield mastery in some way that will make it aaplicable. So I thought it would be more fun to give an existing skill a buff, and one that doesn't shake builds or meta up, because fun is infinitely more fun than, nothing, as shield mastery currently exists.

2nd job steal is great and works fine, but I think buffing it as suggested may be a bit much for it just in 2nd. I'm just trying to close the dead end skills up and make classes/skills a bit more useful and fun, and accent what they already do a bit more (if you've read any of my other threads you know) that's all, not do any kind of meta overhauling.

 

I should have tried to be more direct in my original response~

Spoiler: words

Shield mastery, when it came out, before 4th job existed, was actually a beneficial skill to those who had it. But the game ramped up big-time after 4th job. A lot of the 4th jobs feel very disconnected to 3rd jobs, but anyway, shield mastery is a relic skill. It would have been interesting to see where it could have evolved if the khanjars never entered the game and shads still used shields, but we won't know (maybe a counter skill, a reflect skill, stun with shields, poison with shields, deaggros mobs that touch you. maybe chakra would have become a passive skill, healing 400 hp every 20 sec etc, or working in dark sight. but anyway!)

But since we use two daggers now, it does nothing. Even if shield mastery buffed total def and total m.def, we have mesoguard, we don't need it. If it buffed avoid, we have shifter lol. Its extremely obsolete for chief bandit's, as sad as it is to admit, and there's not much sense in making it work. But its more tragic to just let it be useless, it's just dead content for no real reason.

Also this isn't a super custom ultra special change, it literally just raises steals rates and can hit two more mobs in it's short range at reduced rates, that's it (and maybe some SFX and ME/PP synergy). I dont think it's appropriate for 2nd job to get this because bandits have no mobbing skills til BoT and that is just the way™. And being a chief bandit, it fits the class great, and appropriate they're able to improve their stealing to multiple targets, but would be pretty OP for 2nd job bandits. Also most people skip Steal in second, and skip chakra and pickpocket in third, so chakra and pp could still be options even with steal mastery having a high steal level requirement, as it should.

Also I really disagree that bad core gameplay should be preserved, we have hundreds of changes to the server that fix them. Total crash is a brand new party skill made from the ground up for wk. This isn't that nostalgic of a server if you really compare it to the original game, but a lot of good core gameplay is kept, along with tons of QoL improvements to the bad gameplay. Its supposed to be fun lol, and that's half the reason I made this suggestion (and half the reason for all my "no useless skill" threads or posts--functional skills, even if optional, are infinitely more fun and rewarding, as well as class defining, than totally useless sp dump nostalgia skills. It wasn't a perfect game and that's why this server is here, pretending BB never happened, cutting out it's bad core gameplay and mechanics)

And for the record alchemist should have never affected att pots, that's just wild we let that be a thing but no turning back now lol. Let those chumps pay for as many apples/stoppers as everyone else lol. The healing effect alone is godly.

Steal is useful as a 1v1 skill in 2nd/3rd before you get bstep. But almost nobody put points into it and if they do they never use it though, and that's their choice and build (maybe they just steal hearts or mesos or exp or who knows what) So both things can be true, and are. It is not used at all by anyone (I know, I've tried to talk everyone's ear off about how great/fun steal is) but it's still a largely useless/ignored skill that nobody uses. Both are true. You can just kill monsters for the same loot, but that's not the point of using it, and you choose your build.

Disorder is a really useful defensive skill, but most don't max it or use it at all. Doesn't mean neither skill shouldn't exist just because shads are still complete without them. It was just a suggestion to give life to a dead-end skill while highlighting an existing niche (yet actually class defining, lol) skill for those that choose it. Chief bandits actually have a good amount of flexibility in their SP routing, you could max steal and steal mastery in third job if you wanted

 

I don't remember shield mastery ever being good prebb for Warriors and Bandits. Shields barely provide any defense and doubling that shields defense still provides very little. Steal would have to be fundamentally changed before any of these suggestions can work because steal doesn't take anything from the monster that wouldn't have dropped from killing it. I don't mean to swivel your suggestions, but your ideas seem easier to implement with pickpocket.

 

I meant a LONG time ago, w.def was actually valued.

I like that about steal. If you want to be technical, that's why it's so helpful in 2nd and 3rd job, when you can't kill a bunch of mobs super fast, it gives you one good extra, deliberate chance before a monster dies to get something you're looking for (this is really helpful on slow spawning mobs, or rarer mobs that don't spawn in masses, like the tauros, the wooden fish, drum bunnies, etc etc) And later when you're super strong, it still helps the same exact way, gives you one extra shot for a drop before the mob dies when questing or item hunting. It has a use, but most will just farm like normal.

What's your idea with pickpocket? (pickpocket increasing stolen meso value would be nice. If you mean PP also increasing steals rates like steal mastery, I'd probably be happy with that, but shield mastery would still be dead content)
Steal wouldn't have to be fundamentally changed at all, not sure what you mean there?

 

Make it avoid mastery and give 20% avoid . Nice, simple and maybe useful.

 

If it became like a passive counter move (based off natural avoid, not shifter rates so it wont be op) I'd be ok with that. Something like:

• [Misschief/Counter] passive. quickly counter-attacks a nearby aggressive monster's attack that results in MISS, and sometimes confuses them.
• Req level 10/max disorder
  • Level 1: +6 avoid, 15% chance to counter at 90% dmg, 10% chance to confuse (de-aggro) a normal monster. -17 MP
  • Level 20: +25 avoid, 75% chance to counter at 110% dmg, 30% chance to confuse (de-aggro) a normal monster -19 MP

that way you won't proc mobs you don't want to when sneaking or just traveling around. would be a short reach, like regular attack. Still a billion times better than ninja ambush, what an awful skill even maxed. I'd take a thirty-level, 4th job steal mastery over ninja ambush fr.

And before any "passive steal" comments come around, it's too OP. As this server's self proclaimed Steal Expert™ and Gilgamesh-ranked Treasure Hunter, trust me. It needs to stay a deliberate use skill and low-key: two mobs, three mobs at most after mastery.

 

added a small bullet point concept to the end of steal mastery suggestions:

• [New] With Steal Mastery, can use Steal from Darksight, like Assassinate, but does no damage, for even greater increased chance for successful steal, and greater chance for it to be an item (takes you out of Darksight as usual per cast), increased MP cost to Steal

 

That's some nice flavor, i like

 

wew thanks so much. it was staring me right in the face this whole time [alternatively I think hermits being able to cast shadow web from DS, and popping out after casting, is an equally rad, and no requirements necessary addition]

Huge, usual overarching rant incoming about chief bandits and original (pre-BB) skill trajectory incoming:

Spoiler

To be more thorough, the chief bandit class has an excellent skill synergy and feel, perhaps of all the classes. First I'll just list the chief bandit skills in order (from hiddenstreet):

Shield Mastery
Chakra
Assaulter
Pickpocket
Band of Thieves
Meso Guard
Meso Explosion

Quite the flavorful new arsenal from the 2nd job bandit. I have strong and loving opinions on all of them. The bandit class was my first and favorite, (great armor and weapons, and couldn't wait to steal free items from monsters!), And very fun and self-fulfilling.

Shield Mastery
To stay on topic for shield mastery, the main alternative suggestion for it is to raise attack either flatly or in some %/gradience like the vanilla def buff it gives. It's obvious why people want this, and why it will most likely be the first and only consideration, but I think it's problematic and overpowered.

First, if this is the change, then this skill will instantly be linear meta and mandatory, no question, in an already busy 3rd job SP allocation, though it would be possible, but SP demands aside, it gives no player a choice in the matter, since att shields are worn by all bandits (since def and def scrolls are largely useless compared to attack, there's no contest, unfortunately, although imagining a game where it would be difficult to choose would be amazing)

2nd, huge, unnecessary power creep. Shadowers are powerful, highly geared shads are deadly. Decently geared shads can easily do 300k+ with one assassinate combo. It would also warrant all other skills to be redundantly nerfed just to buff SM, because it would on average boost weapon attack +15 or more for all 80-120+ khanjars users (and possibly the timeless thief shield, whatever it's stats may be...). IMHO it's a very selfish, op and problematic change.

The alternative would obviously be a more defensive skill, or something completely different. Since shads are already tanky (from meso guard being so op, and shifter), it's hard to grant them a skill that makes them more defensive that 1 won't be instantly meta that everyone wants, or 2, won't already buff them in a way that makes them even harder to kill.
That's why my Misschief/counter skill was a humble alternative, it only works with your natural miss/avoid (so it scales fairly over time rather than be instantly OP)
And also, why it being something completely different, such as steal mastery or also sharing hermit's meso-up skill, etc, on top of the fact that these would be secondary rated skills up for player's playstyle rather than linear sameness. Divergence with perks not necessarily even equal to the meta is still extremely rewarding and attractive for players, as opposed to a simply useless skill (as it currently sits).

Chakra
Amazing for dojo or emergencies (if you're in the habit of using it) especially once you have shifter. It's pretty slow, and is pretty random in how much it will heal, but it can and will definitely save you if you put it to use. And combined with other available skills (Darksight, Assaulter, smokescreen, shifter, disorder, bstep stuns, all with their own defensive capabilities), chakra can save you all the hp potions you like, if you play it safe when grinding or farming (bossing unfortunately is not really worth it, I wish it could in some way).
Nonetheless, a very cool skill in the toolkit for chief bandits, especially for DIY solo artists, ironmen, or emergencies (pet broke, outta pots, or need to conserve pots like if you only have potions that are both hp/mp and need to save them for mp)

could it be a touch faster? Sure. Could it be a bit more stable recovery at max? Sure. Could it be somehow more functional? Possibly. Would love to hear other player's feedback before I share any of my ideas


Assaulter
In the two-dimensional world of maplestory, before 2nd job classes had rush *coughbrawlercough*, and before 4th job (these sound like trifle qualifications but life does and did exist before 4th job), Assaulter is possibly the most powerful, mobile, and defensive skill at once. You're able to phase through to the other side of a mob while doing damage. In a 2D game, moving through them alone is incredible. It's fast, it's defensive, gives you a huge strategic advantage, and can literally save you from falling or help you reach otherwise impossible places.
All around just an amazing skill. My only gripe is that I wish it was just a few milliseconds faster, although I do firmly believe the current speed is completely fair and appropriate for it's possible advantages, and that it could ignore defense, but do less % damage, so it's still slightly more useful in bossing if you use it and in late game in general, although it does scale fairly well and any damage at all is a huge perk for the mobility advantage alone. IMHO much better than flashjump, and very appropriate for the chief bandit class. Very well done


Pickpocket
In another thread I've made all kinds of suggestions to help PP scale and be a bit more helpful for the class without it being OP. A newer, simpler alternative to all of them would to just make ME do more damage from PP coins instead of self-dropped. I really don't think ME was intended to be so obscenely powerful via self-dropping, and that this problematic function is still exploitable to such an easy, powerful degree, it totally eclipses PP and it's own intended function. People say it's hard on your hand or wrist or whatever, it's not, you're just not in shape or you have arthritis, but no skill should function like this regardless, it's unsporting to any other skill or class in this regard, meta or not (I swear I'm a huge advocate for this class lol)

Band of Thieves
A chief bandit sends his loyal bandits out to help mob in battle. It has great flexible range and splash, casts very fast, and is quote strong. What's not to love? It can even outpace assassinate overall when combo'd with bstep on HT when cleaving his arm/wings/two heads (plus mobs). Great original sprite artwork as well.


Meso Guard
The most op defensive skill in the game, halves all damage for a scant meso cost. I'm on record saying this skill shouldn't be as powerful as it is, 40%, even 30% is still reasonable. I don't say this to support HP washing either, I'm against that as well, it just makes shads much too tanky especially once they have shifter. (Shifter may have never even been nerfed if MG wasn't so OP. Vanilla shifter for shads is 40%, 30% now in royals). It requiring lvl5 chakra is a good touch though, I'd argue even level 10 chakra or higher to unlock it.


Meso Explosion
As mentioned before, I think the self-dropping potential ruins the function of pickpocket, and makes the damage output of this skill way too over the top. It can out perform any other skill damage-wise depending on how fast you are. Not that there is anything wrong with the self-dropping aspect, but it blows pickpocket, and all other third job, and possibly 4th job skills out of the water because of the damage potential formula ME has. Extremely unpopular opinion but I hope this makes sense, just trying to be fair.


These skills all work amazing together. Unfortunately Shield Mastery is just outclassed because of the attack shield/khanjar meta that took over the original defensive shield intention, it has no function, even originally it was very poor, bandits didn't have wrist guards even, only panlids or maple shields or stolen fences, and not until the timeless list would shield mastery give a valuable def buff, sadly after the khanjar additions. Although I'm not entirely against removing the khanjars either, as much as I love them, or making the choice between khanjars and other optional defensive shields a difficult personal choice

Stealing, being the bread and butter of bandits, and thieves, hello, not the Uber anime ninjas we all think of with NL or DB, the classic RPG trope is what the class is all about, and a very valuable skill for resources that other classes didn't have (imagine a world, long ago without ultispam farming, and sigh rapturously), which 4th job thieves were blessed even further with through taunt (showdown, originally), which I think is a well designed skill: boosted droprates at the same cost to your damage (making monsters minibosses of themselves), so it's not outright OP, fair and square, and you can't get the benefit if the taunt/challenge kills the mob.

Steal gets (understandably) lost in the mix by min/maxers. If it were a mobber in 2nd, it would be instant meta and nobody would care about the steal aspect, just the damage/speed and they would also be getting the benefit of a mobbing steal very early on (and there are reasons we gatekeep how fast classes can do certain things).
Having spent a lot of time with steal, it is a very valuable skill if you apply it right when item hunting, especially later combined with taunt. Making steal mastery an additional complimentary skill on top of 2nd job is because I think it being a deliberate use skill important, instead of the fast, super mobbing/farming skill everyone expects/demands.

The most common argument against using steal is the tired "just kill more monsters faster". This is ulti/farming brain rot. The one major reason and advantage you would use steal instead of just killing, is that steal guarantees one item drop from a monster's loot table, if you get an item before the monster dies, you then get additional drop chances from their death loot. It sounds trivial but it pans out if you apply it, and there's no better maple feeling than stealing the item you're hunting for from a still-living mob, it's a treasure hunting high for sure.
It's especially amazing for mobs with low drop rates, like cwk mobs, slow spawning mobs like largos or tauros, or mobs with very small loot tables


Anyway, all this isn't necessarily a huge long appeal for royals or anyone to make my suggestion (steal mastery/misschief/counter) a thing, but I think in the larger picture of the class, with the original class theme and feel in mind, I think it's ultimately more in line with the trajectory of the class in relation to the skills that came later in 4th (4th job skills often broke or left the other skills behind, intentionally or not).

The way to think about it is basically this:
- forget that big bang happened (easy enough), because it scrapped almost all the beloved original class content.
- Now imagine gms continued through time, and there was little to no powercreep or game breaking mechanics (such as miracle cubes, washing, broken classes)

Then ask yourself: how would these original 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th job skills evolve and slowly rebalance themselves in relation to eachother over time, as opposed to scrapping them all entirely or only focusing on 4th job skills, and how they fit and serve the class and class distinction, and social mmo play?

That's essentially the gist of all of my skill feedback, not necessarily what royals or anyone should do, but: how would the original game evolve through time in a way that makes sense to the original content, and not thinking of the job advancements simply as higher tiers that aren't reflections of lower jobs/where they came from (as said before often job advancements often make previous skills and investments totally obsolete, unfortunately, instead of rewarding the player's choice and flexibility)


One totally offhand suggestion that I would definitely consider if I were an old nexon dev: having some bosses, or mobs involved with special quests, stealable-only items/quest items/components, like how some 4th job quests require a warrior w/o stance, etc.
Similarly, requiring a hermit/NL to use shadow web to hold/capture a mob/boss/special mob for a quest or win/damage condition, all kinds of class specific aspects like this would be a lot of fun and only add more flavor while preserving and improving upon the inherent class diversity

 

Two new suggestions for shield mastery alternatives (added to op):


[Counter Steal]
And to possibly combine both steal mastery, and counter concepts together, a [Counter Steal] skill replacing shield mastery:

• Passively boosts your current steal, and if a nearby mob misses you naturally (not shifter) from touch damage, you counter attack with a passive steal (% chance to steal and damage depending on skill levels).
• Only works on aggro'd mobs.
• Counter damage is less than 100% of your range.
• Allows steal to be used from Darksight, but reveals yourself.

again, essentially the opposite of powergaurd, procs if you don't get hit (natural miss, so it scales well) with your natural avoid to 200.
Req max nimble body, 5 Disorder, 10 steal?


[Dagger Maestro]
If the character is not equipped with a shield type item, passively increases dagger proficiencies, such as avoidability, ignore defense chance, counter-attacks, Steal levels, chakra speed, & pickpocket.

• A somewhat catch-all to boost many abandoned bandit skills and an alternative to khanjar meta, but would be slightly below khanjar users in most situations
• Buffs steal rates and can use steal from Darksight, buffs pickpocket coinage (and coins from PP get buffed dmg when bombed/ignore w.cancel-- not self-dropped), decreases chakra's cast time, can counter touch damage misses with steal, can counter during chakra, natural avoid boost, and a 2% chance to ignore defense, 10% chance to cast current level disorder passively with single target attacks (reg attack, double stab, steal, SB, assaulter, assassinate), chakra gives your next attack increased damage+mastery
• Req max dagger mastery, max nimble body, 10 Disorder, 10 Chakra
• (In 4th) If no shield, increases damage to all skills/ignore def when in smokescreen. +5% avoid to shifter, can steal-counter from shifter

Yes this sounds like a big messy alternative to khanjars/att shields, but this satisfies the current and totally fine khanjar meta, while giving a divergent shieldless path (since shield mastery pretty pointless), buffing a handful of other aspects of the class to hopefully come close to doing near damage to khanjar users with a slightly different playstyle but have no shields, losing out on 30+ w.att to play even more concerted/risky style (chakra healing for buffs, tank more hits or play much closer/on bosses for more counters, counters proc PP, more PP/ME synergy, damage boost when in smoke)


Misc. Shield Mastery suggestions and more~
These could replace shield mastery, or ninja ambush. NA is bad, but it does have a very weak niche use during cancels, and if you have a beast NL in your party that also drops NA once cancel goes up, they can rack up even more dot during the whole cancel, as well as the lucky shots that bypass cancel sometimes, which they have an easier time doing because their main skill hits quickly for 6x. If it has to stay, I'd suggest removing or reducing the delay when casting, and maybe increasing the damage 15%. In normal situations, because the damage and range is so bad, and because NA can't kill mobs (another consideration), it's not worth casting because of the long delay and how weak the damage is and the damage you lose in the delay, bossing or grinding.
Dagger maestro would also be a great 4th job skill to replace or in addition to NA,

• Meso Up, same as hermits
• Advanced Endure
• Poison Bomb or Flashbang, ala nightwalkers or dual blades, req lvl5 ME
• Confusion/Advanced Disorder, chance to passively cast disorder+slow with your single target attacks (reg attack, double stab, disorder, steal, SB, assaulter, assassinate), reduces monster's w.att and def up to -50 if both are maxed, req lvl10 disorder
• Monster Bomb, ala DB, nerfed, req lvl5 ME
• Field Medic, cures a normal status effect on yourself (not sed), CD 10 minutes at max
• Springs, when in weakened state (disabled jump status) can double tap jump button from ground to jump per your current jump stat, or downjump for MP cost. 5 second delay
• Night Charge, chance to randomly apply one status (can't stack), either disorder, slow, silence or darkness to a monster when active, req lvl10 disorder, costs -100 HP+MP. skills that normally stun (assaulter, bstep) are replaced with one of the random afflictions instead of stun, can stack with your venom. blind/slow from other classes (mm/mages can stack, but not other CBs), doesn't work on bosses
• Tracker, increased chance to find quest items and healing items when killing monsters, using steal, and opening chests (not in bonus rooms), or plants/rocks/objects
• Changes to Ninja Ambush as mentioned above
• Venom being able to toggle on/off would be a huge QOL improvement, it clashes badly with steal for very low hp mobs
• Assassinate (XX) - being able to use Assaulter at any point during XX would be amazing for HT, being stuck in the air casting XX can be a lot of trouble, you can't change trajectory towards head A/B/C or wings as the animation follows through, often causing a bump into body parts, and sometimes head B, and if there was a dispel right before or midair, it can be RIP. Removing the auto final blow mini-assaulter animation when struck with a status during XX would be a great QOL as well
• Assaulter being a hair faster and having an ignore def perk but lowering it's damage slightly would help it scale a bit better end game
• Pickpocketed coins simply having a higher base multiplier (and perhaps factor in monster level) when bombed than self dropped coins would solve the PP obsolescence/scaling issue. Self dropped would obviously still have much higher damage potential though.
• Chakra is lovely, butt-saving (and potion saving) skill. many ideas on it. Mainly it be just a tiny bit faster, and offer a small buff or ignore X def to your next attack to incentivise incorporating it into your rotation

Vanilla Shield Mastery suggestions

• Increases avoid +2~40?
• Increases avoid while in Darksight?
• Chance to counter mobs that touch with Disorder?
• Increases w/m def +60?
• Chance to decrease KB range
• Raises KB threshold to be above *1* with a 40% chance damage (will add this to my warrior thread as well)?
• Chance to stun mobs that deal touch damage at a %?
• Increases w/m defenses when in Chakra, increases m.def when in Darksight?
• Chance to counter with Steal? Or add in some previously stated Steal improvements (+steal rates, won't target mobs already stolen from, can steal from Darksight (but does no damage, will aggro the mob)?
• Boosts Endure's rates?
• Poison/Darkness resistance +30%?

Vanilla Steal suggestions

• Will detect mobs that haven't been stolen from first. Huge QOL for big mobs and tracking/time saving?
• Can use from Darksight with buff to rates, but deal no damage (will still aggro a mob), and pops you out of DS like assassinate? Increases stolen meso value, and chance to steal an item? Increases Steal's MP cost
• Small buff to mobs that aren't already aggro'd
• Increased rates when using behind an enemy (if not possible, see above bullet)
• Increased rates on stunned enemies?
• Different SFX for item steals than meso?
• Icon to display mobs that have been stolen from (a small outline of an open chest? Or bag with an X through it)?
• Stolen mesos have increased damage when bombed?
• Quickly flashes the face when an item is stolen, like with shifter?