Before I go into details on my opinions on this change, I want to give you guys some background: The nerf's timeline: For those who are slightly newer to the server, this might not be an update you got to experience when you were playing. But on last year's easter event update, update 60, together with many changes to the game, Dojo, which was only a relatively recent addition to royals (added on update 59), had its point system adjusted due to almost no people running dojo in parties a bit after dojo was released. The old system of dojo gave an edge to solo runners by giving them a flat +1 point for every boss they cleared, regardless of the stage. And before update 60, the later bosses barely gave any points realtive to how difficult it was to actually kill them [namly pap and the panda boss]. After a feedback thread on the subject got the attention of the admins, a change was made: Mu Lung Dojo Amount of points gained from stages has been adjusted: Points gained from the later stages has been increased. Solo Dojo no longer gives extra points compared to Party Dojo. This is how the adjusted point system looks like for both solo and party: Stage 1-5: 1 points/boss [total 5] Stage 6-10: 2 points/boss [total 15] Stage 11-15: 3 points/boss [total 30] Stage 16-20: 4 points/boss [total 50] Stage 21-25: 5 points/boss [total 75] Stage 26-27: 10 points/boss [total 95] Stage 28-30: 10 points/boss [total 125] Stage 31: 15 points for killing pap [total 140] Stage 32: 25 points for killing mu gong [total 165] This adjustment was supposed to incentivise party play, and make people actually attempt to finish the pq instead of speedruning to manon's bossfight. But after the inital spike of people trying out this update, players started doing this pq less and less when they realized it wasn't worth their time and effort. The hyper endgame players pushed hard for hours and hours to get to their daily point limits every day, and got their black belts, but any other sane player in the slightly lower endgame status knew that they can do much better things with their time. Many settled on a blue or red belt, and moved on from the pq. A big complaint when this happened was that it was hard to arrange parties with the 30 lvl difference limit, this was adjusted in update 61 to allow a 50 lvl difference , which again, gave a small spike in pq play again, then came the eventual drop. Today, a year from that intial change, ch 1 is mostly deserted with the occasional afk player sitting in the lobby, and I personally haven't seen a "R>Dojo pq" smega in months. This is clearly not what the admins had in mind when they made this change. The problem with the change: While the reasons for this change were obvious and justified, the approach to fix it was misguided. This might be my personal opinion (and the opinion of many of the people i talked to back when dojo came out), but I believe that dojo as a pq is unbareably dull. It has been dubbed by many as a "walking simulator" when you run it with a strong party, or "Manon% speedrun" by me when people ran it in solo play (unless you are an NL that can solo the entire thing). Even when solo players gain 32 less points than they used to before the nerf when they do manon rush, they still felt forced to use this stratagy because of how much time these bosses take in comparison to the 10 points they give and the potential of failing from a 1/1 + unlucky pot drops. As for party play, even parties realized sooner or later than with the buff, running is still a waste of time compared to anything else that they can do in that same time, so with time it became harder to find people to pq with, killing party play once more. Because the belt is almost exclusively gained from dojo, players still feel "pressured" to get a belt, so people will just come, do some solo runs until they are sadisfied with their white/yellow/blue belt, then bail out. To be, the biggest shame in that is that dojo was intoduced as another solution to make washing optional, black belt giving hp was supposed to give a good solution to make washing less mandatory. But in reality, after doing a few runs, you can tell that the effort you invest in getting a belt won't be worth your time by a long shot. Even a new player can find other more productive stuff to do with that time, like saving money for washing, which completely beats the point of the addition of dojo. So, what can we do? Suggestions for solutions: I can see a few ways to approach it. Before the suggestions to the points, an important suggestion to help party runs to run more smoothly, I suggest making mounts work in dojo. That way, NLs and mages won't need to wait at the end of each stage while any class with zero mobility will get left behind, effectively slowing the start of each run. 1. Reverting only the solo nerf, but applying it to party as well (+1 points for all stages) While this is the least elaborate solution, in the end it might still be capable of tackling all of the pressing issues that make dojo undesireable. adding a +1 point gain to all the stages will make solo runs a bit more rewarding, and parties will benefit from the same boost while also having the benefit of being able to get the highly buffed points from actually finishing the dojo run. A small bonus for this change will be that low level players will also have a better experience with the pq early on. If we can't reliably find parties even with a server that is currently in its highest player peak, then we should at least make solo play not terrible. 2. Complete overhaul of the rewarded points Update 60 tried to incentivise party play by nerfing solo runs, and buffing the later bosses. But they didn't manage to strike the right balance to make partying popular, and people were forced to do solo anyways. I personally believe that the point systems of solo and party should be completely different, as they both have different challenges that they need to face. Suggestion for solo point rewards: Stage 1-5: 2 points/boss [total 10] Stage 6-10: 2 points/boss [total 20] Stage 11-15: 3 points/boss [total 35] Stage 16-20: 4 points/boss [total 55] Stage 21-25: 5 points/boss [total 80] Stage 26-27: 10 points/boss [total 100] Stage 28-29: 15 points for killing manon and griffy [total 130] Stage 30: 20 points for killing levi [total 150] Stage 31: 20 points for killing pap [total 170] Stage 32: 25 points for killing mu gong [total 195] First, I added +1 points for the first 5 stages to make it slightly easier for lower levels to get their first belt, after that, point spread is mostly the same, but near the end it increases earlier than in our current version, which will incentivise people to at least try to reach to pap [and probably die there if they are not an NL]. Any player that think he can go further to pap and mu gong can go right ahead, but solo's point system will focus more on anything before those two. (players that can solo the last boss would have better drive to go party instead for more points, which will increase participation for party play). You'll notice that to rush to manon and not kill it only gives +5 more points than it used to, but actually trying to kill it and the bosses after it gives a better reward for your effort and time. Suggestion for party point rewards: Parties will now automatically start at stage 6, making the time until the actual boss fight shorter, stage 1-5 will be solo exclusive. Stage 6-10: 2 points/boss [total 10] Stage 11-15: 3 points/boss [total 25] Stage 16-20: 4 points/boss [total 45] Stage 21-25: 5 points/boss [total 70] Stage 26-30: 10 points/boss [total 130] Stage 31: 30 points for killing pap [total 160] Stage 32: 60 points for killing mu gong [total 220 points] for party play, I kept the rewards the same, but increased the rewards of killing pap and mu gong drastically. This change will attempt to double down on the approach Matt tried to go for in update 60, while incensivising heavily on actually finishing the pq. This will surely make parties more worthwhile for players that can survive the fights. Also, the addition of mount movment, and no stage 1-5 will make the slugfest of walking until the main objective more bareable. This suggestion basically seperates dojo into two seperate experiences, and make each feel rewarding in its own right. 3. Complete overhaul of the actual pq I'm mostly just throwing it out there, I doubt this will be the kind of solution you guys will ever try to go for [nostalgia + too much work], but I'll mention it anyways. Maybe tackling the points is the wrong approach, maybe dojo is simply a badly designed pq to begin with? If this pq was more fun, it might've been less painful to go through the grind for the belts. Because this is not my main suggestion, I'll just throw here all the noticable flaws that are not related to points as a list of things that would need to be fixed or completely reimagined to make dojo more enjoyable: The bosses difficulty curve is all over the place, papa pixie has 1 shot bosses from before and after it, but he can single handedly slow down or kill a run with his spells, he also have a lot more hp than any of the bosses next to it. There are many examples for bosses like this in the pq. Reordering them to fit their power levels, or fixing their power levels to fit where they stand atm would fix the issue. 1/1 skills feel unfair in the context of a pq with no healing, and rng from mob drops make it worse. Unless you have a bishop to heal you, a single 1/1 renders you one hit away from game over. mob summons being the only source of HP and MP makes it very frustrating when the boss doesn't feel like spawning them, and when they only drop mana potions when you are on your last sliver or hp feels the absolute worst. none of the buffs that the bosses drop really feel impactful walking simulator etc etc. the dojo can be redesigned to become a more enjoyable experience, which would make runs more bareable. I hope than now update 65 is out of the way, there will be more time to look over dojo and attempt to revive it in some way. Thank you for reading this wall of text :3 EDIT 24/5/21: [Just fixed some typos, seems like all the things i wrote here are still relevant to today's dojo experience, so i left the post the same in terms of content]
After 3000+ runs here, I agree with you that there are some annoying problems with the dojo pq. I might post a new thread about all problems and some suggestion after obtaining my wugong medal (200+ hours for a 90-day medal, so ridiculous). First of all, may I ask what's your level and what time you play dojo? During tens of hours camping here, I see lots of ppl party together here and most of them are 130-160 (rip lv200). At the moment I'm typing here, there are several ppl going to pt for dojo. Second, if you find it hard to beat Manon, Griffey or Leviathan, you can check my film for some tips. In this way, I only died once in Leviathan stage (but 4 times in Manon cuz the stupid stun-combo and 2 times in Grif since no more mana). As for the points you mentioned above, I think it's quite okay in the current version. I can obtain 1500 points in 70 minutes in my solo run so that I don't think it will be any trouble for a team. Maybe what you need is a smega to recruit some teammates.
Honestly i gotta say, i wasn't here during the V60 update and the changes that were to dojo. Yes, dojo isn't crowded with people, but almost always when im there i see atleast 1 party trying to form up + my alliance pretty much does it everyday.. Yesterday iv'e done a 1.5k run with some friends from alliance and i dont know what about you but even with the 1hp attacks it was pretty easy to finish. We had party of 17x -> 122 and i was the lowest lvl (122) an nl. we had a bishop and after the 1st run everybody already knew how to handle low hp situations + some classes have self-healing skills. (Hermits: Drain) If there's a change i would have wanted to see in dojo is that: a) have the dojo banner to tp inside in more cities then mu lung along --> which i think WILL make more people come because it will be easier to get there. instead of going from vic>orbis>mulung for example for a pq that after an hour u can do anymore (because ofpoint limit). shouldn't it be in Kerning, Ludibarium and mu lung according to gms? b) i'd love to see more prizes. i know we dont want to custom-make the server really different then the nostalgic one it was, but i think adding prizes for points could be nice: b.1) e.g: Can "buy" with points (points will be reduced, unlike when belt is given) pots that were priced hardly boosted? lets say 100x ginger ale -> 100points(taken from your balance) for example. b.2) Chairs or cosmetic nx (dojo outfit or something of that sort) b.3) medal As far as i see it, all 3 options wont effect current gameplay any badly.. and will give another incentive for other players to do dojo aswell! Imagine what would happend if higher lvl mages (who got effected "badly" because of 0.65 update of pot prices) will do dojo daily to get another stack or so of their favorite %'s potion? If priced correctly, it wont be overpowered, they will have to WORK for their potions and yet they wont "spend" any during the dojo itself. making it only benefical for them + creating more flow of players into the dojo itself.
Beating them is not the real issue (while at times rng will get me), its more of me getting less points for my effort of trying to fight them, they take way more time than simply resetting. Your video of soloing with a 20k hp lvl 200 sair is by no mean a good comparison to your average joe doing solo dojo...
hmmm... the key point is showing how to finish those stage with 0 damage... 2k might be enough for me to finish 30th stage (if Crimson Balrog don't hit me), tbh.
Solo Dojo shouldn't be more rewarding than doing Party Dojo. It heavily favors certain classes when going solo and encourages people to ignore teaming up with others when playing said classes. What Dojo needs in my opinion are these: [-] Mu Lung Dojo Board Posts restored back into Victoria Towns and Orbis (or Kerning City only) - The original Mu Lung Dojo had Dojo board posts in the Victorian Towns and Orbis. There's no reason for Dojo to not have the boards here in this server. A lot of people hate traveling from Victoria > Orbis > Mu Lung just to do a (dull) PQ. If the Boards could be introduced or even have it in only Kerning City, it will increase participation in Dojo and make people more willing to do it. [-] Mounts enabled while doing Dojo - With the Easter event, the Space Mount is available and can be used in Dojo, allowing non-NLs/Mages to more comfortably complete Dojo. Unfortunately, this is a limited time mount. I think Mounts should be enabled in order to make Dojo much better to do in situations where you don't have haste or trying to catch-up in the lower floors where NLs/Mage can speedrun, allowing faster runs. [-] Papulatus's spawned mobs not suicide immediately upon spawning if there is Melee class next to it - Papulatus can be a huge wall to a Dojo party if there's melees in the party. The bomb mobs will suicide immediately upon spawn if a Warrior/Shad/Bucc is in Pap's face. This heavily disincentives having melees in a Dojo party when Melees already struggle due to having to be in close quarters to attack and be at a huge risk tanking the bosses damage or 1/1s in addition being crowd controlled. Buccaneers can get around this by using Demolition only during Pap, but Warriors/Shads still risk causing no potions to be dropped during this boss. If the bomb mobs could not suicide immediately upon spawn, it could allow potions to possibly be retrieved and help Melees not be as much of a downside in Dojo parties. [-] Introduce elemental weaknesses to some the bosses in Dojo (Paladin/White Knight/Mage(s)) - Doing Dojo as a White Knight/Paladin (and a bit on mages too) can be awkward due to some of the bosses in Dojo having no elemental weakness or just ele-Neutral. This can cause them to be underperform greatly compared to their other Melee counterparts even though Dojo should be their specialty considering that they're up against one boss per floor. [-] Reduce Mu Gong's seduce duration - The seduce can just last for too long and cause non-Thief/Mages to die from unlucky back-to-back attacks during seduce due to lacking the massive avoid of a Thief or the tankiness of a Mage w/ Magic guard.
I love all of these suggestions! [especially for the spawns of pap, it makes that fight so much more soul crushing for melee attackers] But I remember that for the dojo board suggestion there was a thread made about it in general conversations or maybe feedback? It seemed like not many were on board with that suggestion in the end of it. Maybe opinions changed since then? idk :/
The people who were arguing against the Dojo Bulletin Boards were clearly ignoring the fact that the original Dojo PQ had Bulletin Boards in all Victoria Island Towns and Orbis and also venting their own frustrations of Fast Travel being too convenient in a Private server that doesn't have a lot of players. They were never a good indicator that people weren't on board with having the Dojo boards re-introduced. If you talk to people who have done Dojo and ask if they want the Dojo boards, nearly all of them will say that they'd want the Dojo boards or at least one of the boards in Victoria (specifically, Kerning City).
I honestly cant see any good reason NOT to add the bulletin board to more places besides Mu lung. many people wont dojo just because they need to do a long travel for just a "small pq" , but if it had a way to tp there from victoria and orbis, it was a lot more playable. Players wouldn't care going there just for 1-2runs because its not a time waste. But stopping grind to go all the way to mu lung just to do 1 run and go back is a huge time sink that's just not worth it. Having the bulletin board on Vic & orbis will bring players that doesn't necceseraly gonna do a 1.5k run, but also to do few runs for fun or with friends or guildies. nowadays, mostly "serious dojo-ers" going to dojo.
After I made this thread and even pointed a GM to it, all that happened was nothing. People just want to assume that you're some noob that doesn't know how to Dojo and feel the need to write out tips/guide. No one asked for advice. What is needed is adjustments to the PQ so that it's balanced to where it should be at.
Like move the lower teleporters to the center of the map? Or just have one teleporter instead of two in each map? (Add a staircase behind it to reclaim immersion lol)
Sorry, forgot to reply to this. Mounts were enabled in dojo. Party Level restrictions have have been lifted for level 135+. Points needed for black belt have been reduced. Daily point cap for dojo was increased. Points for full runs were increased. Papulatus Bombs will now self destruct if below 50% HP rather than by being close to a player. Basically many suggestion were accepted, but Solo play does not give more points than party play as requested. I will still shift this to accepted regarding the overall adjustments.
these are changes in a good direction. I don't think that'll be the full solution to address all the issues i had with dojo, but i take my wins where I can, thank you for that update @Zancks
