In response to the recent Update #73.3 patch which fixed the long-standing bug that left Chief Bandits and Shadowers on 50% health instead of 1 health after they had been affected by a deadly attack (commonly referred to as “1/1”), this is a petition to revert the changes. Shadowers have always been an attractive addition to a Horntail party because of their role as the seduce target because of their high avoidability and Mesos Guard skill; preventing them from dying easily during the seduce duration. This feature bug has resulted in many creative ways to tackle Horntail; such as Shadower and Melee Parties where the arms are defeated before the heads. However, it also resulted in the Sed Mule Meta, where Shadowers mules are brought to the run as the role of the seduce target, essentially removing that component of the boss. This thread will not discuss how it contributes to the Mule Meta as there is already an ongoing discussion on another thread. Instead, it will discuss how this feature bug is beneficial for the server. First, let us address the issue of it being a bug. While bugs are meant to be fixed to prevent exploitation, shouldn't we look at whether the bug has actual adverse effects on the community as a whole, or if the exploit gives the user a huge advantage over others, before actually fixing it? One might draw a relation between the Mesos Guard bug and the already fixed Magic Guard bug, and how both should equally be fixed, but if we study both skills, they are in fact quite different. Meso Guard uses mesos to guard 50% of the damage received, while Magic Guard replaces damage with MP instead of HP. As for the "1/1" attack, it reduces both the player's HP and MP to 1. Putting the bugs aside, correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't the following be how these skills react to a "1/1" attack: Meso Guard: The attack aims to reduce both HP and MP to 1, yet Meso Guard is activated and mesos are used to guard 50% of the damage received to HP. As a result, HP is reduced to 50% and MP is reduced to 1. Magic Guard: The attack aims to reduce both HP and MP to 1, while Magic Guard tries to replace damage with MP instead of HP, there is insufficient MP for it to work as MP is reduced to 1. As a result, HP and MP are both reduced to 1. Hence, the Meso Guard bug should not be compared to the Magic Guard bug as the underlying intention of both skills are different. Next, some might argue that bugs are fixed to preserve the intended gameplay of the original game in the name of nostalgia. If that is the case, why do we even attempt to rebalance anything? How are adjusted skills like Total Crash even nostalgic? It is undeniable that the intended gameplay of the original game is not always fair or balanced, thus Royals put the effort into finding the sweet spot. Echoing Tsue's comment from a separate feedback thread on Archmages, "nostalgia does not automatically justify the status quo." Shouldn't we delve deeper if Meso Guard should be fixed, instead of fixing it just because it is a bug? This feedback thread was written before I actually experience the change, but I foresee Shadowers being as equal as any other class in being the seduce target in Horntail despite its high avoidability. The "1/1" attack will undoubtedly kill them if it does not miss, as they would not have enough mana to use Hero's Will, and the rocks at both sides of map never miss. In other words, if you are seduced by walking either direction and get hit by the "1/1" attack, you are sure to be dead. Also, if the "1/1" attack is supposedly designed to override Meso Guard, shouldn't Achilles be affected as well? Both skills reduce the damage taken/received, yet the "1/1" attack goes through Meso Guard but not Achilles. At the end of the day, I am unsure of the intention behind making this change. Was it just a successful attempt to fix an underlying bug, or were there other reasons for it, such as an attempt to tackle the Mule Meta. As a player, I can only make guesses, but if it is truly an attempt to tackle the Mule Meta, this is just a band-aid solution. I can already expect the attacker with the bishop mule to be the seduce target instead, and actively heal himself during the seduce duration. The existence of the Meso Guard bug has opened more doors for creativity as seen in the aforementioned Shadower and Melee Parties, and in a Pre-Big Bang server like Royals where content is limited, such bugs features and creativity are what we need to keep the player base alive. Spoiler: by the way i dont even own a shadower lel im just a guy that runs 6 horntails per day and enjoy how the boss can be played differently according to the party's composition edited: oh i do have a sed mule, but this thread was not written with her in mind
new mule meta! Spoiler: all-in-one mule pally add luk to level to 149 for high avoid, natural 15k hp. achilles + guardian + stance + crash = ez sed+crash mule
Here to kindly disagree, MG is op already, and on record saying it should reduce less than 50% damage. 1/1 is way spookier for drks/bs than the most evasive, tankiest class in the game that also carries smokes
Can we request an AP wipe for shadower regards to this change? It is useless now and I can't even make this character as an attacker.
I think it's pretty unfair of staff to label this as a "bug fix". As far as I can tell, meso guard blocks 1/1 in original maplestory. If this is what staff believe is good for the game, please just call it a "skill change", instead calling it a "bug fix" in order to justify it. For example, here's a random clip I found that shows meso guard does block 1/1 in original mapletory 11 years ago: As the OP pointed out, this is consistent with the 1/1 interaction for achilles. Here's another random clip that shows achilles also blocks 1/1 in original maplestory: In terms of balance, I just want to point out that it would be incredibly frustrating to get 1/1'ed and stuck in dark sight now. Shadowers theoretically have the best survivability in the game, but that is really only true for mules. Shadower attackers always run the risk getting stuck in dark sight, and that can become especially annoying if one has ping issues (because the dark sight skill requires a server roundtrip). Unlike the BM change which nerfs SE mules and nerfs/buffs SE mains, this change nerfs Shadower mules but nerfs Shadower mains more. From the patch notes: "This bug gave the Chief Bandit and Shadower classes an extreme advantage over all others in boss fights, and has given rise to a HP-washing mule meta. We do not wish to promote either by intentionally keeping this bug around." This statement is unreasonable in multiple ways: 1) This is not a "bug" that has been intentionally kept around. This was how it worked in original maplestory, and consistent with how achilles worked 2) Shadowers do not have an "extreme" advantage over other classes (looking at you NLs). Between similar classes, buccs have better single target on apple and much better buffs. Hero/Drks have much better multi-target. Pallies have good single target and crash, which is arguably the strongest dmg buff for non-NL classes. I do think removing sed mules is good for the game, but I don't think this is the right way to proceed, unless the other argument that this will lead to better future content design is extremely compelling... (I'm still skeptical of this tbh)
This is not a bug, it was originally such a specification, and I thought it was one of the major features of Shad. I don't understand why this change is highlighted as a bug.
Is this nerf(or “bug”) trying to reduce and restrict muling in HT? Soon we will see “R>Atker with sacrifice mules for HT”
People with actual Paladin/Shadower attackers can still use them as sed mules, it's just bloodwashed mules who got screwed. If Meso Guard and Magic Guard blocking 1/1 was a bug how come Achilles and Power Guard still work? I guess if people start using that we will see it fixed too in the near future. I guess the future is suicide+TL mules
All you talk about is the mules but shads all based on shads run in ht its all the fun who made this choice ruined the game thats all i can say
While i do find the "bug" labeling of this skill change... perplexing at best. I still think that as a balance change, it makes a lot of sense. Latching on their labeling of this change would definitly not help make the call if this change is just or not. Cause you would've made this thread even if they'd called it a nerf, wouldn't you? The change is the thing that matters, not how they portrayed it [I think that calling it a bug fix is retarded as well lol] "This thread will not discuss how it contributes to the Mule Meta" Sadly, this is an inseperateable part of this conversation, you cannot take it out of the equation. The nerf is targeting mule meta more than anything. As for how much it hurts shadower mains as well remains to be seen. But considering that shad is still a fairly tanky class, with high avoid, and smokescreen, I don't see this crippling their usability in the long run. All it did was introduced it to at least a bit more danger when it comes to face a boss with seduce and 1/1 attacks [which, by all means, should remain a threat, or else royals will honeslty have nothing threatning in its bossing gameplay]. If tanky warriors can pull off being sed without the benefits of ignoring half of a 1/1, then shads wouldn't become instantly trash for losing this ability. Maybe it will increase the demand for actual playing bishops instead of mules as well?
All i can say is who dont play shadower as main will never understand how big and bad is this decision
I am not here to say whether or not you are right, but, yes, what is and is not a bug isn't clear cut, hence the "it's not a bug, it's a feature" meme. I could consider revising the wording of the patch notes, as it seems to have garnered the most attention, despite past efforts to stress that Staff doesn’t have a ”if it’s a bug we will fix it”-mentality. Regardless, I think it would benefit all if you didn't gloss over the second part of the Developer Note, which is also crucial to understanding why this this change was really made. One could argue that it’s an intended feature, but I don’t think this argument holds as much water as imagined, as old MapleStory didn't face the same issues as Royals, not having the same average character stats, same longevity, same need to introduce new content after new content using only the rather lacklustre feature-set of this version of the client. When the Meso Guard skill was designed, Chief Bandits were running around with 3-4k HP, slightly more with Hyper Body, and would be in range of being 1hko after hit with a Deadly Attack ("1/1"). Now perhaps the original designer didn’t consciously balance the monster damage numbers for that to be the case, but it might help explain why this ”bug” or deviation was left intact (I am just speculating.) Furthermore I believe that Horntail was originally designed to apply seduce to the first users who enter the map to help push for the tank role that is present in most MMOs but was famously missing in MapleStory up until that point. This suggests to me that even the original designer was struggling to achieve an interesting dynamic with the limited featureset of this client. Deadly Attacks (”1/1”) remain one the few truly unique attacks we have at our disposal to create a challenging or dynamic bossfight, and I wish that this aspect was given more attention in the discussion. Naturally I feel empathy for those who created bloodwashed mules who serve no other purpose than this, and there is a reason that chasing balance in a game so far into its lifecycle can be maddening. On the other hand I believe we are gimping our ability to design content for all future, by pinning ourselves down with a ”feature” such as this. It’s just not black and white.
I disagree with this change for reasons I will mention in a future thread, but more importantly (and a little off-topic): if this is your approach, you can just fix the biggest problem in Royals right now (Auf helm) by just removing it.
Well, keep in mind I don’t speak for all of Staff and my word is not law. Would need to devote a considerably greater amount of time to relay such message! I also don’t think my message should be interpreted as a declaration that a strategy of removal will be applied to every problematic aspect of the game. (Not to mention that each user has different opinions on what makes up the most problematic sides of the game.) Will continue to observe and collect feedback on the changes made with this patch, for now.
i just wanna point out that a lot of changes made have been worded as tho they were bugs when they are just buffs/nerfs/outright modifications some examples: from Update 70: from Update 65: from Update 63:
