I'm copying and pasting my reply I made in another thread. I can understand from most people's POV why this Meso Guard update is fair - and I agree to a certain point. HOWEVER, I can tell that most people have not played shadower, or understand that our main attack macro, is severely affected by the update. They're may be some better alternative solutions to these problems I listed below - this is just my current thoughts and opinions Getting [skill locked/sealed in Dark Sight] + [1/1] during Zak/HT = risky death sentence. Causes shadowers to stay in dark sight since they cannot execute the next skill in the macro [assassinate/boomerang step] Only solution is to immediately manual right click Dark Sight in the top right >>> manual pot ASAP before the next dmg hit occurs. For people with higher ping using the macro [Dark Sight > Boomerang step > Assassinate], they may sometimes end up 'dashing' into the boss and then getting stuck in DS/skill lock/stunned. If [1/1] happens here, I currently cannot think of a solution to survive, and I cannot test this since I cannot use this macro order.
Oh boi, i don't know why i didn't realize it sooner, considering i play a shad lol, but this is quite a problem. Getting stuck in dark sight with a 1/1 hit is pretty brutal. The only solution for this other than the removal of this nerf, would be to make ANY skill used while in dark sight to disable the skill. Currently you can only disable it through assasinate, normal attack, or right clicking the skill, so if assasinate didn't trigger, and you got hit by 1/1, unless you notice it fast enough [which is not the easiest in a chaotic boss fight], you will die. If you get stunned, and not swap to your mouse to disable the skill fast enough [and quickly follow it up with a heal], you will die. This issue goes beyond HT now, every boss that has a 1/1 becomes too risky to combo with assasinate
New meta: Die like a shad! Stonk right into the body when skill locked. Assured death sentence! Remember back then when i played shadower 13 years ago, i havent acquired any memory about the instantly hit that reduces to 1HP/1MP
Thank you for clarifying that the change was more than just a mere bug fix, because that was the idea a member of the staff was conveying in the shoutbox shortly after the patch notes were released. With that aside, I'm still trying to understand the reasoning behind this change. In the update notes, part of it states that the server wishes for Deadly Attacks (“1/1”) to affect all classes the same. If that is the case, shouldn't Achilles be affected the same way as well? Part of it also explained that the bug gave the Chief Bandit and Shadower classes an extreme advantage over all others in boss fights. I could be misunderstood, but isn't survivability the unique identity of this class - therefore the obvious extreme advantage they have over all others in boss fights? In Update 71.1 where the effect on avoidability on LUK was reverted, it was mentioned that having evasive abilities was an important aspect of the Thief class, and that [future changes] will be done so in less intrusive ways, and without sacrificing the unique identity of each class. By taking away the sole purpose of Meso Guard; which is to prevent this class from dying easily, are we not essentially contradicting ourselves? Perhaps keeping the "important aspect" and "unique identity" of the Thief class was not the biggest reason for reverting the change in Update 71.1 but rather, the vast majority of non-mage characters are Night Lords, ultimately caused too much harm and upset to devoted players. Does this mean that a minority class like Shadower can never get a say, or gain enough traction for the Staff to hear them out and consider their opinion? Or should they not be upset because they are not devoted enough? Looking back, this statement just sounds like an insult to the other classes. While I do understand is that the bug was fixed in a bid to prevent the Mule Meta, I believe there are other ways to achieve this without sacrificing this unique identity of the Shadower class.
First, I just wanna say Nicky thank you so much for voicing this for the shadower community. And I definitely echo all the things you have said. There are a couple things that I would like some clarification from staff. It would be great if you could provide some answers. I personally feel that survivability is a core identity for shadowers. And that's also why I wanted to play shad on this server cuz it works the same way as I remembered. In the patch notes, you guys mentioned that shadowers have meso guard which gives them an advantage over other classes in 1/1. Don't all classes have extreme advantages over others? Night Lords have the strongest single DPS in game, alchemist that gives them more duration of att pots and are ranged attackers with super high avoidability and mobility. Don't Night Lords have extreme advantages over other classes in terms of DPS? The reason that not everyone plays Night Lords is that some do want to play other classes and we are after for something unique and different even though the DPS of the class is subpar compared to Night Lords. I love shadower for its survivability and I don't care about how much DPS it can deal. Nerfing it is taking it away. Same logic here, don't mages have an extreme advantage over other classes in terms of farming mesos? And why don't we buff other classes in terms of farming or further nerfing mages? If continuing with the logic, why aren't we nerfing the single DPS for night lords? Why not give all classes same DPS? Is it because that by doing so, some core identities of those classes will be taken away? Since this change, I am seeing most my shad friends are disheartened and discouraged. I know that shad community is rather small and may not be as vocal as the vast majority Night Lords. But whether we gain traction or not in terms of this change, we do have this concern and the loss of motivation in continuing leveling our shadowers is commonly felt. And we sincerely hope that staff can provide some further clarification when it comes to nerfing/buffing classes. Lastly I do appreciate the step that staff are taking regarding mule meta. But it's just hurting shad mains more at this point.
Shadower’s advantage is too extreme, to the point where 1/1 deadly attack won’t even be a threat. A washed shad, or my 20k+ shad, is literally unkillable in most cases. And it’s difficult to introduce new bosses or contents when shad can just run around without any drawback However, I do agree this point strongly. I didn’t know Achilles block 1/1 prior my apologies. If Achilles now have advantage over shadower, then this fix loses it meaning. It should be either a meso guard revert, or both meso guard and Achilles fixed.
I'm not sure if it warrants touching achilles. There's still a big difference between achilles and meso guard because shad has an 80% chance to dodge hits following the 1/1 (and has a 40% chance to shifter the 1/1 too). So shad in the situation where shad gets 1/1'd and takes 2 follow up hits, they've actually only got a 21% chance to die. When warrior gets 1/1'd they go down to 4.5k at max, which still dies to boss touch/magic, and is only particularily helpful when hit by rock. Avoid is lowkey (highkey?) the most broken mechanic in maple. Edit: Specifically for ht can't shifter rock, so death chance with rock after 1/1 is 60% (since you can shifter 1/1 but not rock). Hero dies in 3 rock hits. Should also clarify I don't actually care if mg blocks 1/1s or not, was more replying to possibility of achilles nerf.
In that case isn't warrior with Achilles have an extreme advantage in 1/1 here? All classes should be equal then with 1/1. Why is it okay to nerf shad just because it has high avoid( thought high avoid is unique for thief)? But not treating warrior equally? There's also another thread in feedback suggesting increasing accuracy of the boss when targets are seduced so avoidabilty won't be an issue. As warriors already benefit so much from its natural high hp (or low costs to wash). I don't see how high avoid is that broken. As players of NLs and shads did invest a ton to hp wash so they can tank. A natural unwashed shad only has 5k at 140. Also I think in ht, if you are a shad and get seduced and 1/1. You will die to the rocks as it hits you 100%
Bro, I'm down for a revert on this or a change on the mechanics, but you can't just ask for a nerf on other classes just because yours got nerfed, remember that Matt loves to nerf things out, if you ask for it we will get it. Also, by implementing this kind of changes I think staff is assuming every single shad in the game is/will/have to wash and that's kinda weird considering most of the community agreed that wash shouldn't be that of a must at this point in the server, just imagine an unwashed shad with 4k hp on zak now dealing with 1/1 and stuns while on ds lol
Hey sorry, just wanted to throw that idea out there and I am nowhere whishing the nerf hammer coming for you guys too. Since this nerf is trying to increase the difficulties of the game and make the deadly attack indeed deadly, I just felt by solely nerfing one class isn't sufficient and a bit biased(also tbh, we are not playing some competitive gaming here like dota and LoL, and from my dumb opinion, its not what most players on royals are playing for anyway -- difficulties). But you are absolutely right with the unwashed shad experience. This change did not consider that. And it seems like the argument that shads are so op with meso guard, no way to die are mostly based on washed shads. So a part of the shad community gets neglected.
lol not just HT or Zak, we die in pap now.... to all the people suggesting to “be attentive” and right click dark sight in top right of screen and manual pot within the finite time frame before dying - maybe you are a Pro and enjoy staying that attentive to the top right of your screen with your mouse cursor while keeping an eye out for stuns/skill lock/seal - for hours a day during bossing. But I am a noob and I simply cannot enjoy playing anymore. And to any other casual players without amazing ping who play on laptop without a mouse- I truly wish you fellow shads the best of luck @Tsue Yes avoid is high - but a key point in what I’m trying to say is that a shadowers main attack puts us in Dark Sight where we are unable to heal. People with higher ping will have even less time to react as well
I literally just died in pap. I was 1/1, stunned and in ds. I quickly took my mouse trying to right click ds. However, I died even before I’m able to move the cursor, the mini bomb who was walking towards my way killed me. Kekw! There’s no time for me to right click ds at all!
I was unaware that Achilles negated 1/1's because on my DK I'm still getting 1/1'ed and I have that maxed. I thought it was already affected by 1/1. I would rather see a nerf to Achilles then to make it fair if we are going forward with fixing these 1/1 bugs that probably should've been done long ago. I had commented on another post similar to this one, and offered a suggestion of making pots useable while in darksight, or allowing darksight to be cancelled when pressing the button again, or having other skills break darksight aside from assassinate and regular attack. I think allowing pots to be used while in darksight would stop the stun + 1/1 + trapped in darksight accidental deaths, personally speaking (and also from experience.) If we are going to compare Shadowers to Warriors lets start with the Thief kit first: -Smokescreen -Very high avoid -iframes during Bstep that can negate damage. Now lets take a look at Warriors: -Naturally high HP -Stance -Rush Warriors don't have any avoid at all, most of them are inside the body or just on the edge at all times anyways. Warriors (especially DKs) are also phased out of most boss runs due to the HP washing meta, and the fact that a majority of bosses excel with single target damage dealers. The Thieves I run with already negate most 1/1's due to their high avoid, the off chance you'll get hit by one is still below average compared to other Classes. Playing on my Shadower I notice I already avoid some 1/1's as a semi-low leveled Shad (137) and definitely more frequently too, compared to my other higher leveled characters. The unique identity of the Class itself is still there, they still have high avoid, smokescreen which neutralizes any incoming attacks for a set amount of time, and iframes that can counter some incoming damage. Shadowers could live if they got hit by attacks that were above the client's maximum HP limit. I would argue that it was broken being able to dodge 1/1's frequently, and then get tickled when one actually landed on you. Edit: I didn't add Achilles to the Warrior list because as I stated before, I thought it was already in effect while I was writing this.
I will clarify that Achilles interaction with 1/1 is that you are just left with 15% hp. EDIT: removed mp, you are left with 15% hp.
Then I must've been getting hit by other things on top of that, because I would infrequently see 5001 sometimes and I use reindeer milk still. I thought it was already affected by 1/1's.
This extreme advantage that you have highlighted only comes into play when two conditions are met: (1) the Shadower is of a high level, thus the accompanying high avoidability from the high LUK, and (2) the Shadower is heavily washed. In your scenario where the Shadower has 20k+ HP, yes, they may be literally unkillable. But isn't that simply the reward of heavily investing in your character? I would like to bring up the unfairness of reverting the avoidability on LUK change in Update 71.1 if this small pool of devoted, heavily washed Shadowers are going to be punished for being literally unkillable. Also, putting those heavily washed Shadowers aside, have you considered those who do not have as much funding as yourself, but opted for the Shadower class because of its survivability without submitting to the HP-Washing Meta, and the ease of getting accepted into a Horntail party because of their attractiveness as the seduce target? Intended or not, I believe this is the biggest group of Shadowers being affected by the change.
My math could be wrong or my character could be bugged, but if Achilles do indeed reduce the damage taken by 20% for DRKs, 22,732 * 0.8 ≈ 18,185.
Achilles is 20% on DrK and 15% on Hero/Pally. "[Dark Knight] - Achilles will now reduce incoming damage by 20% when maxed, up from 15%."
+1 to every bit of this, I echo exact sentiment. There are arguments for nerfing meso guard that I can possibly stand by, but 20k+ hp shads being unkillable is a very poor reason. It’s really not that different from 30k hp NLs asking for auf touch damage increase to 23k. And the avoid nerf revert just feels unfair at this point. Somehow staff can decide that avoid is core to the nostalgic identity of NLs and shouldn’t be touched, while shadower survivability is not. (To be explicit, I think it should have been reverted - this is more so a comment on staff’s perceived stubbornness on that issue vs. this). Keep in mind that the collective experience of staff with shadowers is very skewed and far from the holistic experience across all types of shadower players. Yet staff members sometimes like to speak as if they fully understand what is right for the game and why the players are wrong. We already saw an example of this happen with the avoid nerf, but sadly there are no NL players to piggy back off of this time.
