In Discussion Content Rose Garden Nerf/Adjustments

am i tripping or did they lower the actual mob spawn rate in the bonus maps? i remember them being far more full when you first enter them...
now the rate is about the same as the questline map itself

 

The initial spawn was maxed out and it has been now set to the regular map spawn. You would still get the current spawn rate after you cleared the bonus map once. No more free bees at the start. This change wasnt listed in the change notes. Im assuming the initial spawn might not have been intended.

 

Having run this a few times on my somewhat weak bishop i would like to offer my ideas on how to improve the user experience a bit.
first off id like to adress the exp change, i went from 36% per rose garden run to a much healthier 15% per run so i think the exp is at a good level now.

now for changes, before i start i think its worth saying i do not think we should add all of the changes i propose as that would put us in a unhealthy spot again.

Start the combined timer when we enter the boss stage, while lowering the combined timer to 35 mins
this would lower the bonus time loss for less funded players who have to spend more time in stage 1 and 2 and are hit extra hard if their rng is bad while still leaving more funded players largely unaffected.

Guarantee a miniumum of 20 min bonus time
lower funded players are in a much better place with the hp reduction of the boss from the recent change but lower funded bishops now have to spend 15-20 minutes killing the boss thus eating into their bonus timer severly and making rose garden much less appealing. with a guaranteed 20 minute minimum bonus it will be worth running rose garden for every player no matter their funding.

Revert or reduce the -25% ultimate bee spawn
bishops and mages have already recieved a 20~50% reduced bonus duration due to the boss having twice the hp and being hit hard from bad rng in stage 1 and 2

Give us the option to teleport to our prefered bonus map or automatically send us to an appropriate map based on our class
having to run to our prefered map wastes even more of our already reduced bonus duration.

Increase the timer before bees disappear or remove it fully
running after the bees are just annoying for some classes, while not affecting other classes at all. even the playing field a bit and make it less stressfull for classes with minimal mobility

Reduce the hp of the boss from 40m to 30m for mages (was 20m prior to change)
15 to 20 minute boss runs wasnt appropriate for dps classes, it shouldnt be considered appropriate for bishops either.

 

Update:

I ran Rose Garden again using banana graham pies for the first couple of stages, then I used Swiss cheese on the boss.

- 23 minutes of bonus room: using banana graham pies

however this time around I had better map control and more telecasting involved.

-Received 27 bees (135m) while using 5 Swiss cheese (10m)

These are drastically differing results from my initial post nerf run (where I received 14 bees).

With that said:

- Due to having a combined timer post nerf, I still believe that the bee despawn timer should be removed, as people won’t want to be multi clienting into RG, or else they lose time on their bonus room. Aside the fact that telecasting is highly important, so if someone wants to multi client and idle cast, let them.

- Boss HP should be lowered to somewhere around 30m-35m

I think with these slight adjustments we could see some more positive results from the playerbase.

Just my 2 cents.

 

What are your thoughts on doubling bee survival time? I think the content making you hunt for bees is good as an afk checker. And by afk, I mean mindlessly just hitting shit.

Afraid if they remove bee death people will just mine numbingly rotate the map until 30seconds and pickup all their bees. Also bees might count as a mob and contribute to max mob on map, so better they disappear sooner anyways.

Think its cool the content makes you be actively thinking

 

I think a lot of the complaints about the bee despawn timer could instead be fixed by doing two things:

1) Reduce the bee move speed. It's pretty much equivalent to the lv 200 mount, which is just insane.
2) Change the areas bees navigate to. Currently a lot of these areas are awkward spots with no/few mobs (at least in the 3rd map) so you have no reason to go there except bees. Moving these zones to areas with better spawns would make it easier to pick up bees while grinding, so it won't feel as bad.

 

(Note: 1H Flame Sword Main)
Before Patch:
Hero: ~27
Paladin: ~26
(Mostly never echo'd) Gizer'd everything

After Patch:
Hero:
33 (29mins)
27 (28mins)
22 (27mins) - unlucky Stg1/2 drops

Paladin:
24 (28mins) - unlucky Stg1/2 drops
41 (31mins)

(Echo'd) Warrior Elixir Stg1/2 > Stopper Boss > Gizer bonus
-----------

I didn't want to do Rose Garden on FP mage after I heard how Mages got gutted in RG, so I didn't want to attempt.

Things I agree with from looking at other's feedback:

• Longer time before bees expire
  
• Making bees automatically chase after you
  
• Reduce the hp of the boss from 40m to 30m for mages; was 20m prior to change

Some things I'd like to see:

• Boss has Poison/Lightening weakness (for FP / IL users to use their Single target skills to kill boss)
  
• Maybe make boss have lower hp for Ranged attackers? (since they get less bees overall anyways; helps Von Leon ranged atker get more time on Energy farming)
• Make us be able to climb faster (shilling my own thread... I know...)

 

1360 tma bishop. stage 1 and 2 average 2-4 mins each, boss takes 18 mins. average bonus is around 14 mins where i get around 8-12 bees.
12.3k range dk stage 1 and 2 average 2-3 mins each, boss takes 4-5 mins on apple and bonus is around 32 mins where i get around 25-30 bees

 

I'd like to say that I had been feeling incredibly burned out from this game. I took a break, touched some grass at Falador Square and returned right before RG was added.
Since RG, I am enjoying playing the game again. I felt having a reason to upgrade my dk with Mw20. Bought new gear for my mage and actually played my mage (for my mage) for the first time in, idk, 3 years or something, I was very hyped and excited to play and go all out on this content.
Now I can act like I am above human psychology but I am not, loss aversion has definitly struck me. I had been doing Degen IL-Mage LHC exp farming with friends to get our mages up to 170, making a plan to get meso and buy Mage upgrades and now I feel kinda robbed from that, and it sucks.

Regardless, I do very much understand the changes. Both meso and exp were insane. Not having the quest reward box does feel like another punch to the dick, allthough having double rewards from this content is probably a little too much. It was a nice PE farm for my DK while it lasted.
I have to say that before I had the choice of doing bonus, since I have very limited time (and energy). Choosing not to do bonus and still feeling like my time spend had been worthwhile was something I really liked.
While I am going to contradict myself here, the 40 minute timer does cut some time out of this content for me. I am doing like 20-25 minute bonus now, and losing those few minutes from this content make it doable for me most days. Also it makes it feel like upgrading my gear pays me back in having more bonus time. I think that is a good thing.
On the otherside. Before I was doing pre-bonus very chill. Enjoying the content. Having a smoke-break during boss. Now I am 40 minutes of active, go-go-go. Things I like about this game such as chatting with ally, shit talking on smega and trying to negotiate some prices on whisper is now costing me a lot of meso, wich is actually making me enjoy playing the game less. I am not sure what prefer more.

THANK THE LORD FOR BOSS HP-NERF, WHY STOP AT 40M??? CAN WE DO 20M??? PLEASE I GIVE YOU 10 MINUTES OF BONUS FOR IT, IDGAF.

This Boss was Papulatus territory for me. Not afk enough to dual wield Royals and Tinder like Krex is. Slightly less tedious, but takes longer. However also gives more than 350 nx, so it's something I could make myself do, especcially with the rewards that followed (bonus and reward box).
Anyway, I am very happy with the boss taking less time. Not only for my mental health but also for the limited time I have to play this game.

It might be me, you dont have to give a fuck about this. But everytime I am taking my hands of my keyboard to pick up my mouse because I can only click on something since npc-chat key doesnt work (INTENTIONALLY FFS). I am very annoyed. Like irl all-caps annoyed. I don't care if this makes it feel special or unique, I have no good words to speak about this. It's breaking the flow of my game, I find it very tedious for no reason.
Yes, thank you for increasing interaction range of the ghosts. If you would like to try out how it feels with even more range, I am not holding you back. You have all the right to experiment, just saying....

Lastly, everyone is talking about class balance, meso farming, inflation, multi-mage farmers ruining the economy, if it's fair or not if the mages take less time to kill a boss in solo content. I do not give a single fuck, I don't care. I was having alot of fun playing this game again, I was very excited for my other characters to gear and level up. Now I am significantly less excited and less enjoying playing the game than a few days ago.

 

Thank you for this QoL. If you could, please remove the dialogue box of freeing the children. It's an annoyance more than anything else.

It would be nice if you guys could make them walk faster and have lower attack range(projectile range unaffected). It's definitely weird that when aggro'd they try to snipe you a whole screen away with very slow projectiles. (would also be nice to have unrestricted Rush but if its to bring variety in rooms, then nevermind)

I'd be careful when discussing IL/FP vs Bishop. I know there's plenty of people that will argue Bishops have expensive books and thus more expensive but this was argued during the discussions of making Dukus viable. Bishops are essential almost everywhere and can join HT/Auf/VL or even be mules. If Pink Bean or any other big boss comes out, Bishops will always be able to participate. Archmages can't do anything besides farm/mid-level+ leech. People tried to convince Staff to at least make Archmages decent at bossing in Neo Tokyo but that fell through (mainly for FP mains).

 

stage 1 : 1~3 minutes
stage 2 : 1~3 minutes
stage 3 / boss : 3 mins 40~50 seconds

i did 3 runs so far on my drk, apples + echo from the start of entry til the end.

1st run bee count : 41
2nd run bee count : 42
3rd run bee count : 50

Spoiler: mages despairing

 

What map do you go for bonus?

 

Sorry Kenny but I tried this and it was a hot (cold?) mess.

Rhino has 456300 HP based on monster book. 40% of that is 182500 (so that's what blizzard should not do more damage than on average, to avoid triggering the nerf following 2 blizzards)

Spoiler

By equipping wand 8 I can handicap blizzard to average below 182500. This is better than removing gear since CL will be boosted too. But I have to cancel echo and go in without big potions like pie.

Now that seems trivial but keep in mind there's still 91k+ HP to shave off, and handicapping tma in general makes that take more time.

Big Bang (needs charge and has terrible range): 80k-90k
Ice Demon first hit (wand 8): just below 30k
Ifrit: 38k-43k+, high 50k-60k+ with Ice Demon's effect*
CL: average 48k on first monster
Ice Strike (wand 8): less than Ice Demon
* Ice Demon and 1 hit from Ifrit after is not enough to cover the residual HP

Notes:
1) Equipping wand 8 weakens Ice Strike which had the more relevant hitbox in most situations, so I need to waste time casting it 4 or so times vs 3?. I could have moved to another section instead.
2) In many cases, other platforms just require too much climbing time to reach to hit with things that aren't blizzard.
3) Left platform group is the only one where the suggested strategy kind of works, because you can freely teleport down to hit bottom floor and go back up without having to climb again.
4) When using ulti in bonus, you usually get more rhinos coming in or spawning into the ulti's hitbox. E.g. you can be hitting 5, then maybe 2 more spawn on a platform, one walks in from bottom, etc. Obviously it's not worth stopping and circling to kill rhinos from earlier spawn if this happens.

By trying to go out of the way to kill rhinos after 2 blizzards (though for some platforms like mid I just used normal blizzard because it's not worth climbing), I ended up with 25 bees /26 min 30 s (I pied in boss with echo) which is below what I have been getting just using wand 7 as normal (28/24min (gizer) or 32/26min (pie) so far).

So maybe I should equip wand 8 and just finish off the ones nearby if possible after 2 blizzards... and still the benefit is probably minimal since only 2-3 near you per group will be spared the nerf. And you have to kill the nearby rhinos before using the 3rd blizzard to kill the ones that are on platforms too far away, making you potentially late to next spawn.

Solitary bottom rhinos can be aggroed with Ice Demon, where the DOT can take them out of nerf range given enough (a lot...) of time, but I was already doing that with wand 7. Ice Demon also has that weird property where they sit there for a few seconds before chasing you.

Also this is definitely not feasible for FP in room 1 with the platforms being so far apart and explosion being slow as hell. Maybe they can mist in room 3, not sure as I haven't tried as I want more TMA (levels) on FP. And as everyone has mentioned Bishops are N/A.

I took screenshots but realized they are horrible (didn't take NX cover off my wand 8, didn't show I canceled echo and pie following boss, and I covered powder count with cursor though you can see the net difference at bottom right). But honestly what I described should be pretty obvious based on layout.

Spoiler

 

The 25% nerf for mages is entirely unnecessary. This *is* farming content, and the shared timer with boss HP buff is already enough to keep mages in check. I've said before, but my bishop is now getting entirely outclassed by my paladin.

Here you say "Attackers can’t farm that well but excel at bossing. Maybe with that ultimate nerf mages and attackers get closer together here." Do you mean that attackers are intentionally getting buffed at farming? If so, does this mean mages can finally have a buff for bossing? Or any reason at all for mage mains to not just quit since they seem to be hated by the entire dev/balance team?

Yeah bishops can kind of join some bosses, but outside of Von Leon where muling isn't possible there's really no reason to ever take a mage main instead of a mule, unless they're a friend you're taking along to be nice. Bishop support just isn't engaging enough to require an active player, since it's pretty much: cast hs, cast holy shield, have ress in case something goes wrong.

 

1st map, i tried 2nd map / 3rd map prior to rose garden change, i always got better yield from 1st map

 

RG is good and friendly for newplayer,who almost build mage first.
Newplayer need to spend many to build hp wash attacher.
RG is more interesting than sell leech and farm ulu.
Now RG nerf. Newplayer go back to boring leech and farm ulu.Feel cut out of all the fun .
Poor mage can't enjoy bossing to get

 

Life Update:

I haven't smoked dab's in a hot minute. I got a dab pen tonight. Yea. Nuff said so

- High as a kite

I made a record-breaking 15 golden bees stoned as a mfker

That's not bad.

I beat myself when I was sober.

GG.

More results tomorrow...

Edit:

I had 20 minutes of bonus room time. But the bee despawn wrecked me, no joke ngl lol.

Please extend it or remove it QQ

 

Please increase the equipment drop rate from King Castle Golem. I run RG daily on 1 character and only get rose earrings(Equipment). Didn't got any Ifia earrings.(At least 10+ RG run)

And you remove the possibility of getting a cs and reward box. Even though you make the reward in the box dropped by King Castle Golem(Ring, Scrolls), but the boss NEVER dropped these items. For me.

Am I unlucky?