Making defense relevant again When was the last time you looked on the defense stat on your armor? "Never" you say? Well, don't you think that such a stat being completely ignored in an mmorpg is kinda absurd? When was the last time you felt an increase in defense had a segnicifant difference to the damage mobs can deal to you? Lvl 20? 30? 40 maybe? But you will notice that once you hit higher levels, this stat has a very pathetic effect on the damage you get from mobs. It always bothered me that this stat has no meaning, and that only hp determins how much damage you can take before getting 1h out of existance. So while being bored today i searched the formula to see what's the reason for that. Here's a formula I found for calculating the effects of w/m def: Weapon defense: MAX damage = (MAX before defense) * (1 - 0.01*D) - WDEF*0.5 MIN damage = (MIN before defense) * (1 - 0.01*D) - WDEF*0.6 where D is (monster level - player level) if (monster level) > (player level), and 0 otherwise. Magic Defense: MAX damage = (MAX before defense) - MDEF*0.5 * (1 + 0.01*D) MIN damage = (MIN before defense) - MDEF*0.6 * (1 + 0.01*D) [Link to source] Alright, so lets start by focusing on weapon defense: The damage is affected by three things: the clean damage of the mob, the lvl difference, and the weapon def. While the lvl difference is multiplied by the clean damage, the effects of the weapon defense are only added. That means that it doesn't scale up with the damage, and only offer flat defense. (2 def is like having one extra 1 hp). You can say that the defense stat is given pretty linearly throughout the levels, but the growth of damage of mobs grows far faster, and end up leaving the defense behind. That leaves the effects of armor to be completely meaningless when it comes to any mob above lvl 100~ Oddly enough, ms added the level difference handicap to the mobs so they apparently won't completely curb stump lower lvls, but that goes away once you get closer to the lvl of the mob. Same thing for the magic defense, only that this time, the lvl diff affects the magic defense, not the clean damage. All in all, we see that the effects of armor dont scale well into mid and late game, and there will never be a time where one gear beats another because of its defensive capabilities. Also, it means certain party buffs and pots that give defense mean jack shit. Our community keeps complaining that hp washing is dumb, so to me it seems like making defense worthwhile endgame is another path in making washing optional. By adding another part to the damage calculation equation which contains the defense, that is multiplied by the clean damage, there will basically be a % defense that properly scale with the damage of the mob. Because I'm not a master of maths, i don't know how to construct an equation that fits my goals, so i can't really give an exact equation as part of my suggestion. But i essentially want the % block to have diminishing returns the more armor you get, up to an armor cap (that would be out of reach with casual gear). I just want the defense stat on our gear to be another thing we consider when we pick gear, especially when you aren't washed, making the trade of damage for defense. Thank you for reading through my ramble, i'd like to hear what you guys think. EDIT: in addition, i forgot to mention that together with this buff, the damage of all bosses should be increased. So that it won't give a boost to the entire playerbase, and instead be another tool to rely on in order to survive 1h attacks other than washing.
In fact I remember going to the omega sector very often just to buy the defense potions they had in gms, but of course that's why I was a magician and lvl 45, I think it's interesting to give some relevance to the defense later in the game , but aside from what you mentioned, can you think of more ideas?
Hmm, beside buffing the formula itself, there are a few more changes that can be made, off the top of my head: Buffing defense scrolls, as right now the defense they give is outright pathetic, scrolling for hp always makes more sense than defense. I doubt anyone used those scrolls other than to meme so it will hurt no one if we buff them this late in. Have certain party buffs and self buffs that give defense to give slightly more, making those skills more meaningful. To help distinguishing between hp washing and simply gearing up armor, add a new debuff that certain mobs and bosses would cast. That debuff would half the defenses of the player. This will make defense a slightly more risky stat because if you rely on it to survive an endgame boss hits, but don't use all cure in time, you might die. Think of it as the similar gameplay that mages have with dispel in bosses like HT. This might be a little more far fetched, but maybe double the effect of the godly system on the w.def and m.def stats. So that the godly system would be able to give from 0 to 10 extra defense stats, compared to the normal 0 to 5. Unlike most stats in the game, stats like defense, hp and mp benefits little to none from the godly system.
i actually saw some difference in def when i was like 12x or something. wearing hp gear n getting hit 19k by anego while wearing normal gear n getting slapped 18k instead. still died cos i barely had enuf hp back then on my nub drk tho. most recently tho, i do see a diff in damage taken on my cpq mule. the zak helm really helps me to tank rombot damage much better n i barely hv to take hp pots anymore. but aside from tat its basically useless. at higher lvls, the boss hit me 1 time = i hv to pot regardless of the damage so def is just a number that makes me feel protected from the danger of the snails
exactly, while there are parts of the game where you do feel an improvment, that feeling of progress, defense wise, kinda halts early game, and never come into play ever again. the fact that you felt a spike when swapping between hp gear and normal gear is because you did a huge jump from low lvled armor to late game armor, and even then the change in damage wasn't all that big. I doubt any late game player cares if a low lvl mobs hit him for 1, or 200 (a difference of about 400 m.def), or if anego hits him for 19000 at max or 18800 at max. flat increase just doesn't work on its own, there needs to be both flat increase like the one we already have, and a % damage reduction in addition to that.
I like this idea! i was thinking quite the same like the defense in armors mean nothing in maplestory. This will be interesting if actually implemented, players will now look at the defenses of the equip before purchasing. WHERES THE POLL XD
I might make a poll once I have a more concrete idea of what people would want to see implimented. Also, I prefer hearing people's opinions more than seeing a statistic so I'm mostly fine with leaving it to just discussions.
You could also do what GMS did & make shield mastery apply a straight multiplier to the entirety of your defense stat, and not just what your shield gives you. Adds a nice little bonus to damage reduction when you're using the thing literally made for it.
The existence of HP washing just makes any changes to defense moot. The only practical way of utilizing high def that I've experienced so far is when I was afk farming (rip) on a mage. Other than that def is actually a pretty garbage stats that don't really factor much in the late game content.
Pretty sure magic damage is the main (not only) consideration of player received damage in any form of bossing (or when it matters), not physical damage...
I remember one time thinking it was absurdly strange that my mage wouldn't die when I left it afk overnight at voodoos when it usually does, but then realized that I was wearing a Htp. Htp>MoN
This entire thread is about making it relevant mori. The fact that its useless is exactly the reason i started this conversation
Introduce a new boss that does AOE physical damage. Make it 105% damage relative to your HP, only to be reduced by armour that will leave you with 1-5% hp. Skill cooldown every X seconds. This is the only way that I see that defense will come into play, otherwise existing 30k hp characters will just be unkillable.
I think rather than a blanket defense rework, make it so NL/shad cant dodge 1/1 attacks and then pretty much everyone is on the same level. Makes no sense that none of the warrior or mage skills work on it but they can just shadow shifter around it. Edit: Yan has informed me Achilles does indeed work on it- but that's more a blanket damage reduction rather than use of defense or damage Edit: Yan has informed me Achilles and Guardian do work- making Guardian 30% like shadow shifter would be fair in my book (or lower shadow shifter to 15 but im just talking outloud at this point)
If the defense system / formulas would be changed than everybody with already scrolled gear would be screwed as they'd aim for more defense in addition to the high stat items they farmed for so long. Who would want to buy the 30 luk 14dex thief top if it has only 73 magic defense instead of 80?
I like the idea of a blanket defense rework, but also HP washing just seems to be the main issue for a bunch of things. Defense, NLs being overpowered, not kind to new players, etc. HP washing is the cause of all of these issues, and we all just accept it like it should be a part of the game. Shadow shifter is irrelevant if theres HP washing, it just means that NLs MAYBE have to spend 1m more during HT than before, which is basically irrelevant because theyre already spending 50m on apples, extra mesos on dragon elixers, etc.
On a server with auto pot, even 1/1 doesn't pose much of a threat, so having NLs get hurt by it won't even slightly budge the meta. NLs would only be less viable as sed mules, nothing else would change. Btw, even MG blocks 80% of 1/1 if i remember correctly. NLs aren't the only one cheating the system. As i see it, there are only 3 spells that pose a threat to washed players: Seduce, dispell for mages, and mass DC :lul: Most other attacks don't pose a big enough threat to be of any use in adding difficulty. They can only prolong a fight: Wa cancel, dispell for non mages, debuffs and stun. In a server that gives autopot to all players automatically means that damage from bosses is just a selection tool that decides if a player can or can't join a run. If we aren't planning of doing anything with autopotting, we at least got to add something interactive about the damage of the bosses. Because it is silly that the only times you'd normally die from damage was because of lag that caused autopot to fail or running out of pots. I think the suggestion i gave after the op would be able to solve that: To make sure its an actual threat, maybe even increase it to 100% armor loss
I doubt that in their end game state, they would need that 7 magic defense to survive a 1h. This change would mostly help the unwashed or lowly washed players, with giving them the path of unlocking certain bosses via making a armor vs damage trade-off.
