Revisiting the design of Meso Explosion

Revisiting the design of Meso Exposion​

So, now that we are now post-shadower buff, to me (and looking at the feedback forum, to others as well), it feels like there are still some loose ends to take care of when it comes to shadowers.
A recent announcment by Tim sparked a few conversations on multiple threads about its effects on the class, and specifically, on ME.
But what I couldn't help but feel throughout the entire conversation, is that the problem doesn't lie with what the admins consider cheating or not, it's downright in the design of ME as a skill.

First, I'd want to look into what ME was meant to do back in GMS when this 3rd job was made, what are the differences between a normal gms server and our server, and why it all matters.
After that, I'll throw my suggestion on how we can possibly fix this skill so it will do what it was designed to do.
And lastly, what would be the advantages and disadvantages of making that change.
[disclaimer, I do not own a shadower class, so you can take whatever i say with a grain of salt]

1. Chief bandit back in GMS

I won't deny that some of what I'm about to say is half speculation from looking on the skills of the job, and half observing the gameplay of CBs back when i played before bigbang on gms.
But when you look at the skill Pickpocket, it's not that hard to imagine what the devs thought when they made that skill and ME.
As I see it, they wanted the CB to kill mobs in a map using its normal attacking skills "Assaulter", "Band of Thieves" and "Savage Blow : Dagger", and have it use the money that dropped from them to kill the next round of mobs that spawned quickly via ME. Then, to give them tools to also use ME in bossing, they made the skill "Pickpocket" for cases where you fight a single target (mostly bosses), you keep them in place with your knockback, then blow them up with the meso they dropped in between attacks.
This idea was nice on paper, and I remember back in GMS bandits mostly used those skills that way as well.
But when it came to private servers like royals, it ran into a problem of being too strong when you drop meso.
The reason mostly comes down to meso availability.
In the old gms there were many things that controlled meso inflation. unlike our server rates (2x drops, x4 meso), they dealt with the default rates. And if you didn't pay for NX, you had a really small inventory to work with, so collecting many equips and selling them to an NPC wasn't making as much money as it does on this server. This + the leech story meta that developed on this server resulted in a lot of free flowing meso that didn't exist in gms.
Why does this matter? Well, if you played GMS, you'd know how much money was a million back then. Back then buying items from NPCs mattered, pots ran your wallet dry, and having a bil in your inventory was downright endgame levels of money. That meant that any CB player that would've thought of using their own meso as ME fuel would need to think twice.
On the shadower guide, Marty says that a BF kill takes about 7m if you use around 4000~6000 per sack, while 7m isn't the end of the world on royals, it was a big amount of money on gms for the exp you would've gained per kill. This fact balanced the class, and made it so only the rich tried leveling through ME alone.
But on Royals, dropping this much meso to lvl up is not a big sacrifice, and sometimes in bossing, it can even pay off.
ME was designed for a certain value of meso, so that it won't overpower the other skills the CB had in hand, but once the meso inflated by tenfolds on our server, that balance completely broke.

2. So, what can we do to fix it?

Simply put, we disable inventory dropped meso from being used by ME, and balance the skill around the Pickpocket skill instead.
ME always had the issue that it does the same damage no matter how powerful the character is, be it lvl 80 CB, or a lvl 200 Shad, fruit knife or dragon dagger, nude or equiped to the brim with endgame gear. To make the skill work like any other attacking skill, it should scale with the damage of the player.
But, unlike how many others suggested making the actual skill scale with damage, I suggest using the scaling of Pickpocket as it's damage scaling.

From the description of pickpocket: "[pickpocket] Makes the enemy drop mesos for a certain period of time. The amount of mesos dropped depends on the damage and the skill level."
The meso that drops scales with damage. So if the Shad is stronger, it causes more meso to drop, which makes ME stronger as well.

Of course, this alone would make ME do garbage damage, and not be worth anybody's time, so the amount of meso that drops from pickpocket should be buffed, and maybe even increase the success rate of the skill from 60% to 80% for a more consistant drop of meso.

3. Advantages and disadvantages

Advantages:

• Class no longer relies on the mechanic of fast meso dropping, that caused so many problems up until now
• CB as a class would finally use its other skills in actual combat instead of using only ME
• debateable: Shads will have a more dynamic combat style where they weave in ME between attacks to deal their damage, without the need for dropping meso
• ME will no longer be as strong no matter your build, which was silly no matter how you looked at it.
• Shads will now invest all their money into their gear instead of booming it away for their main damage maker

Disadvantages:

• Some may argue that this lowers the difficulty cap of shadowers, and that technique as a meso dropper would no longer be a factor in how well you do as a shadower.
• Speed training with CB would practically be dead.
• This drastically changes how shads played up until now.

As always, I'd love to hear your guy's opinions down below, if people will point out important points that I have missed, I'll edit them into this post.
Thanks for reading through this long-ass post

 

So is the primary problem a feeling unfairness from people using macros to drop mesos for meso explosion at a much faster than legitimately possible rate, or is the problem that meso explosion encourages such macros in the first place?

If it is the first problem, can't a limit on meso drop speed be implemented to limit meso drop speed to the maximum legitimate rate (though I am sure this would cause arguments / be hard to quantify)? Though if it is the second problem, then yeah that's a more fundamental design problem.

 

I had always envisioned ME working with PP only, as I do not like the method ME is used today. So I agree with you that mesos dropped from a player should not be eligible for ME.

Mesos dropped by PP would be a "different" type of mesos, which cannot be picked up by anyone to rule out any form of mesos abuse. This would be the first step to balancing ME, and afterwards balancing the ME damage scaling from PP to work well in combos (assassinate, step, ME - repeat)

A con that I could predict with the above changes, would be the overall DPS catapulting Shadowers to or near god tier, which to some is not too bad. ~gotta beat them pesky NLs~

 

I think PP and mesos dropped should be both allowed to be used. Just that...

PP
- Increase the amount of meso dropped to 1~6k (amount is up to debate, but should be inferior than manual dropping of mesos)
- Make it unlootable by anything and anyone

Mesos dropped
- Change nothing about it

This way those who can't be bothered with higher maintenance and costs of dropping mesos in exchange of higher damage can just utilise PP instead and promote multiple skills to be used (savage blow when cancel wa for example) instead of spamming Bstep + Assassinate the whole time when it comes to 1v1. In some way it is how post-BB Shadower works but this is without completely eliminating the original identity of Chief Bandit where "dropping mesos and bombing them will result in insanely high damage".

 

I'd like to see a change like this approved. Always seems kind of dumb CBs get such a powerful skill that early. Either way, dropping mesos looks super boring and tiring so I've never made a shad.

 

The second one, I want to abolish a game design that drives people to use macros to be used effectively.
I dont care much about the fact that different people do it faster/slower, i'd compare it to drks that can or cant pull off zerk in HT. But I do care that what separates them is how fast they click determines their pure DPS, and that the use of macros and 2:1 binds was the only way for shads to be comparable to other classes in damage without completely losing their fingers.

 

Every class update the admins do gets playtested by them, they can nerf and buff PP and other skills accordingly to avoid a out of hand damage scaling.

 

As somebody who lvld from 1-70 through leech and 70-155 through meso bomb with 4 base luk, i can approve that meso dropping kills your fingers / hands.

I hoped for a buff for pickpocket too, which i also mentioned in the Shadower Feedback Thread. However i think with the recent changes to Shadowers it's not neccessary to change pickpocket anymore as the issue was not only meso bombing itself and it's issues coming along, but the fact that you'd become instantly poor even trying to compete DPS wise with other classes.

Now i can use only my active attacking skills, except meso explosion, to be effective.

Personally i would love to see Pickpocket changed to a somewhat useful skill but i guess it won't happen as every class has a bunch of useless spells and we'd end up changing skills left and right.

 

What were you trying to make? a 30k/30k shad? O_O

 

Eh...

 

I was correct for one of the stats f3

 

Beautifull feedback, i agree 100%.
PP shouldnt be worthless skill. Hand dropping is just retarded, you waste your mesos, it's not fun, you damage your health. Seems to me like ME even back in gms was not meant to hand drop, people just abused the fact that they could drop 5k bags and boom it.
Pickpocket should def be buffed, make it to drop 1k~6k bags like someone said here i mean even 1k bags is more than enough to balance this.
ME on self dropped bags doesn't make any sense.

 

Stop trying to change the game too much. I rather have ME where it is right now. I doubt any experienced Shadower players agree with the idea of changing ME mechanics.

Pickpocket will still be unused even if they buff it because it is a 3rd job skill. If they increase the amount of meso dropped from pickpocket too much, it will obviously destroy the balance of the game. On the other hand, if they buff pickpocket a little and make "dropped meso from inventory" not be explosive by ME, then it is clearly a nerf where I don't see ME being usable for any late game Shadower players where they can simply out dps with Bstep+Assassinate.

The main issue with ME is non-exploding glitch. Instead of changing the game mechanic, it is much better to just fix the non-exploding glitch as of now.

After the recent Shadower buff, none of the late game Shadower players around 9k clean range use ME during boss fights because they are forced to drop an incredibly large amount of meso to out dps Bstep+Assassinate and it is not worth wasting tons of meso for a minimal dps boost.

 

I'm not sure how this is going to come off, but I really hate the idea of my shadower's effectiveness being determined by a bunch of people who don't even play the class. It rubs me the wrong way that several people are saying blowing up my own mesos is dumb or doesn't make sense even though they presumably don't play CB/Shadower. If I lost the ability to drop mesos and blow them up, that personally just kills the class for me. I would probably just quit. Several comments have been made about it being bad (i.e. unskillful, boring, tiresome, etc.), but I actually quite like it. I think it's very chill and relaxing to bomb bf because I can just sit in dark sight and watch videos/chat with other players easily. That being said, using pick pocket would be cool. It won't fix the issue with either the no exp glitch or infinite explosions on 1 stack, because all the mesos would drop in the same exact place on stationary bosses (zak, krex, and HT) which is where this glitch is abused the most. I have no issue with pick pocket becoming more effective because as it stands it is quite literally useless, but I'm just not ok with it if it changes what I like about shadower in the first place. The conceit that CB's only use ME is only true because all the other skills are so tremendously bad. If the staff wanted CB's to use any other skill besides ME, they should buff Band of Thieves like i suggested in the now closed shadower feedback thread. Try buffing it to 500% damage instead of 250%. I have personally played with this buff in a different server and I was very satisfied with that change. I was able to level my CB without relying on ME at all. Several of the other listed "advatages" just kill what I like most about the class. It is just an odd job that does things very differently from the other classes. My final concern is that I don't have faith that this would come through as a satisfying change over what we have now. Not to sound cynical and I don't have anything against the staff, but it just seems like something that would be very difficult to make good and test properly (I don't know how many of the staff main shad, if any). Instead, maybe just fix ME's glitches and make it work like how it did in old source because it still doesn't work like how it used to. The cost for a solo krex went from 112mil to 127mil at no fault of the player. I know it's probably a very complicated issue, but it's just been so long now with no sign that ME has even been touched in over a year despite the glaring bugs. Obviously players shouldn't abuse glitches, but it's had the same issues for so long it nearly seems like a feature at this point.

I hope this opinion is valuable coming from a long time Shadower main. The poll results have me worried that I'm going to get shafted by a bunch of people who don't play shadower. I don't even know 21 shadowers by name (21 being the amount of people who voted it to be problematic and worth changing)

 

A thing i told some in private chat is that i dont value the poll as much as i value the opinion of actual shad mains. And i started this entire conversation declaring that it can be taken with a grain of salt due to my inexperience with shads (only played CB back in gms, and not for very long).
I made this thread because i always thought ME has some glaring issues, and that in a private server, lvling as CB becomes downright silly. And I still stand by that.
I have my doubts that buffing band of thiefs will actually make all CBs move away from ME, especially because some of the shads are washing, so their damage is crap no matter what.
Seems like i misunderstood how the bug occurs though, ill remove it from the list.
You say that you like the way CB is different from other classes, but the game CB plays is downright a different game. While any class has stats, skills, equipments, etc etc that determines their damage output, and by that, their exp gain curve. CB says fuck to all that and play a cookie clicker that converts meso into exp. I don't mind if you don't agree with me on that point but i see that as a really out of place gameplay for maplestory, and mmorpgs in general.
You could literally reach lvl 200 if you wanted with only 4 luk, and a butter knife from lvl 70 to 200 and some funding from another chara. As much fun as it sounds, it simply shouldn't be in this game.

 

I'm glad you value shadower main's opinions because otherwise we would feel left out in the cold, being underrepresented and all. I disagree with your opinion on BoT for a couple reasons. For one, like I said, I've personally leveled with it before and it's perfectly viable. Two, when new source first came out, people were forced to level their CBs with BoT and people managed, even though the damage was so shit. Ultimately you're correct though, not every bandit will choose to play with BoT, but your reasoning seems poor. When you consider classes choosing to wash, that is really besides the point of ME because you can literally level any class with only points in int, except you actually get to play the game when you do it with a shadower. Additionally, this can only be done if you have a mage to leech you to 70 and to fund your character because otherwise you would get into 4th job without being able to fund yourself or use any of your 4th job skills because you couldn't equip a dagger. This logic applies to any class, but it is subjectively better in my opinion because you actually get the play the game instead of sitting in a room getting xp from someone else. When considering the balance of the class, I personally think that washing shouldn't be taken into consideration because it's metagaming beyond what the developers intended. By the same logic, literally any class can get to lvl 200 with stats like 4/4/4/4. The reason I believe it's less of a problem than you is because once you make it to shadower, you actually have worthwhile skills besides ME. bstep and assassinate are powerful in their own right and grinding and bossing becomes possible without ME, but it continues to supplement your DPS as you level beyond 3rd job. That being said, I still bomb at bf to this day. The fact that you could level to 200 using just ME is also basically a moot point because at that point you aren't really playing the game. ME is functionally a vessel for you to get to shadower and unlock real skills like bstep and assassinate, which I think is totally fair because 2nd job is incredibly slow and awful. I think I actually spent more time in 2nd job than 3rd and I'm thankful for it. Not sure if you will agree with what I have to say, but I'm happy you are willing to have a dialogue about it.

 

Hello, i've been playing for about 1.5 years now. So i haven't experienced Shadowers in old source, however how did meso explosion work different from how it operates or is being used now? How did it happen that the costs for ME for Krex went up from old to new source? And what change, in your opinion, would make this skill better or change the class or it's 3rd job rather for the good? Is it a pickpocket buff you hope for? Im really curious

 

This could be considered mildly offtopic, but could be relevant for the purposes of criticizing ME so I'll just throw it in here anyway. The formula for ME has been redesigned for new source and is no longer the original formula, but a custom one made by Karven (as far as i know). I believe this was to account for the fact that ME no longer has identical mechanics to how old source was and the new formula was intended to compensate for it. If you look at the guide for shadowers, you'll find a section titled "Speed Bombing". In short, mesos are now immediately consumed as soon as the button is pressed instead of being consumed when the actual explosion goes off. DPS is now worse in perfect circumstances (such as Krexel who does basically nothing), but is better when only having the opportunity to press the button once. While my reasoning is speculation, it is factual that you cannot speed bomb any longer, restricting the DPS of ME. It is possible that with the new formula, there is a new "optimal" amount of mesos we should be dropping, but the ME formula is completely unpublished so we will never know for sure. No official comments have been made about the intricacies of the changes to ME as far as I know. It would be better if it just worked like how it did in the past, but it has been suggested that it's impossible to do so, so i really have no idea how to fix it. It just isn't the same and probably never will be. Pickpocket buff would be cool, but i would not want it at the cost of losing current ME functionality.

 

If you dislike the idea of blowing meso away for exp, how about just create a poll in relation to removing leeching system?