hey gallimar, ayane and everyone else that support this 2HBW buff! A kinda fun question, If there is a way to buff lvl 110 2HBW by its weapon attack. How much weapon attack must be increased to be viable and up there with the rest of the many weapons? considering that the attack speeds stays at Slow. (You can give a range of numbers with an short explanation) Spoiler To be editted
Well first of all it isnt viable as Matt himself said. But id say 15atk or so perhaps. Maybe 20? Anyways to something more realistic, they did give heroes two 2h axes with increased speed, so i dont se a problem doing the same for pallies 2h BW
To quote myself (although I find it unlikely that everyone will be convinced) on the subject of simply increasing the attack speed of big heavy hammers:
Well even when you quote yourself you still say "I guess it can't be done without simultaneously buffing Crushed Skull." And i myself dont think 2h BWs should be fast either. Im just saying a speed 6 option (Wich is still slow) would solve the whole 2h BW issue, were not talking 1h BWs here only 2h. I mean they did increase mastery for axes but i understand why (The brandish slash/stab problem) But they also increased the speed of the 2 top endgame axes and thats what i cannot understand, or well i do understand it, i just dont understand why the same cant be done for 2h BWs.
You'd need a pretty massive atk boost. If you compare 2h and 1h BWs, the difference between their STR multipliers isn't that big (for 2h it's 4.8 slashing and 3.4 when stabbing, while for 1h it's x4.4 and x3.2). The slower attack speed (crushed skull got a normal speed) pretty much counters this thing so you can compare crushed skull and 2h BW just by their weapon atk Crushed skull got 125 atk at max and the ability to wield a shield (can be up to 30 atk, though it's rather expensive). Even if you only get 20 atk shield, that's still 145 atk and the 2h BW only got 117 atk or so. So yeah you'd need at least 30 more weapon atk to be similar to crushed skull and swords
You are wrong, lets say crushed+shield has around 170 attack together (Scrolled and done). And a 2h BW having around 135 atk (not impossible if lucky with scrolls, same as with the crushed+shield u also have to be lucky there) Thats 25 atk less for the 2h, however.... the 2h sword counts as 1.25x attack compared to 1h. So that 135atk actually becomes 168.75 wich makes it almost on par with the crushed+shield. the ONLY thing holding it back is the attack speed.... wich if it was 6 could atleast compete with DPS on bosses (With Booster+SI)
Where did you get 1.25 from? The difference between 1h and 2h is their strength multiplier and for bw 2h is only about 10% stronger or less (4.8 against 4.4) By the way that's wrong for swords too, the sword multiplier is 4.6 for 2h and 4 for 1h so that's 1.15 and not 1.25
I just found out that its actually not 1.25x for 2h. but just 4.8 vs 4.4 as previous writer said wich makes 2h even weaker. Dont get me wrong im sure you know ur math but can you please explain how 2h BWs with a speed of 3 (With SI+Boost) is comparable to a 2h axe with speed 2? Im only bringing up the axe example since heroes got a buff to it, i do understand the mastery buff to axes cuz of brandish/Slash/stab problem. But i do not understand why 2h BWs didnt get a speed increase if axes got it
Because it's impossible to tweek the damage of all weapons ever created by a set amount, I think the only possible balance chance to the damage would be to buff the multiplier of BW. I also don't think it would be good to the thematic of BW to have their mastery or speed increased in any way. It should be an unwieldy weapon, that sometimes deal ok damage, and sometime hits for HUGE amounts, but all with slow attacks. This way, each weapon will have its "niche". Swords are fast. Axes have a more consistent damage output. BW will be slow, but have a big damage range.
Yes that was what i was talking about in the post, we wouldnt want to see the attack speed of big hammers getting increased. Weapons with different attack speeds and damage output = different playstyles, which is nice. But either way, whatever they do to buff 2HBW, i support it because, 2HBW is really bad atm, Buff is better than no buff!
Axes are quite a lot better, because even with the slash/stab 1:1 ratio from brandish the 75% mastery makes up for it and makes them more stable than BWs (about 4-5% higher dps) In addition there is the CWKPQ lvl 90 axe which got a fast speed which can get a speed of 3 without SI. The difference in DPS between a fast (5) weapon and a slow one without SI is around 17%. Even if you have SI it will still be stronger by about 8%
Hello, I've been asked to comment on this thread and our choices regarding not buffing the 2h BWs while we did look into axes. The short answer I provided was that it wasn't needed in our opinion. As I'm reading through this thread I would like to make some remarks on some comments made and provide some math to strengthen our decision. First lets look at some numbers. for comparison sake I took the same parameters I used in this post: https://royals.ms/forum/threads/4th-job-skill-changes.135025/ With the perfect Dragon Flame 2h BW (152 atk 21 str) at attack speed 7, apple, si, se, mw, echo and holy weakness we're at 233265 DPS on lvl 200. With the perfect Crushed Skull and Maple Shield (160 atk 21 str + 30 atk 20 str) at attack speed 6, same conditions, we're at 266126 DPS on lvl 200. With the good Dragon Flame 2h BW (140 atk 18 str) at attack speed 7, stopper, si, se, mw, echo and holy weakness we're at 129673 DPS on lvl 140. With the good Crushed Skull and Maple Shield (145 atk 18 str + 20 atk 10 str) at attack speed 6, same conditions, we're at 147081 DPS on lvl 140. This brings us at a 14% DPS difference at the highest end and 13% at the lower end. Now to get to the thought process behind not buffing the high tier 2h BWs. We always considered Paladin to be a very unique class in the game. By the aid of elements and their newly obtained party skill (Power Crash) they finally got a spot in the game for party-boss-play compared to the other classes. Heck if you're loaded and invest your all into good gear you can out-DPS all classes besides Night Lord and Corsair as long as the target is weak to an element and single target. There are a lot of more casual players than the 0.01% I just described though so for general play-ability it's not required for anyone to only be viable when you invested in a good Crushed Skull and shield compared to a high lvl 2H BW. For all the players that are 'ballin on a budget' the 2H BW Paladin is still a very viable option. That brings me to the point: the aforementioned DPS comparisons are not 'fair'. the 1H options basically got a shield thrown in on their 'gear budget' meaning that if you had to build a lvl 140 or 200 paladin with the same amount of mesos spend for 1H or 2H you would save yourself a considerable amount of mesos that you can allocate in your other gear if you went for the 2H BW option which would bring the DPS difference closer together. If we're comparing 1H to 2H BW we can't change anything about their mastery of course, as that would take both BW's into account. Changing the speed of the higher end 2h BWs didn't feel natural to us as we think swinging around a heavy two handed blunt weapon should be slower in combat compared to it's one handed options. I'm aware that Paladins have a more strict growth ceiling of DPS as at some point they can hit the damage cap, however don't let that fool you as consistency is key and there isn't a paladin out there (yet) that only does damage caps over time as that would require a calculated 317458 DPS which is still basically unobtainable. Now for some comments: I disagree! choosing 2h BW leaves you with a lot of money to spend otherwise to get the same results instead of investing in a 1h BW and an expensive shield. Paladins don't have trouble hitting really high, they even hit damage caps quite early on. We don't believe every option has to be the same, as mentioned 2H BW have their place as a cheaper alternative with the same potential unless you start spending a lot of money on a 1H setup. We got the numbers for you! ^ There are people using 2H BWs at the moment, the crushed skull and shield setup is just something people tend to grow into at the later stage of their character after they got some funds. your values are a bit off but the thought is there. If you're wealthy enough to purchase 20 atk glove / cape / shoe you should definitely consider an 1H bw and shield setup if you want to compete with swords. The 2H BW route is a more budget friendly alternative This math is false. I hope your speed question got answered above ^
How can you know how much more viable Dragon Flame is in term of budget when there are usually literally none in the market. using forum threads as a reference a 117att DF is worth 250m-350m; assuming 7 successful 60%/70% scrolls 117+14 =131 i'm not considering 30%/10% scrolls because that would be financial suicide. Now i believe you can get a total att around 150 from a crushed skull+maple shield for about a half of that budget, probably even less. i don't know how the math works but i assume 150 att of a crushed skull outdps's 131 att of a DF,and at half the price. Let's face it,paladins are not a common class,blunt weapon paladins are even less common,and 2hbw unironic paladins are non-existent. my suggestion would be to either nerf crushed skull or buff dragon flame, since as of right now there is absolutely no reason to pick dragon flame over crushed skull,both DPS and budget wise, except for novelty purposes.
the short version is: You can land a few 30% scrolls on a lower than perfect attack 2H BW at a much more cost efficient way than trying to make a 1H weapon and purchasing / making a shield at the same time. The only reason I gave to choose a Dragon Flame over a Crushed Skull and a shield is saving money which still stands. Most Paladins tend to outgrow that and go for the more expensive but stronger 1H option eventually but that doesn't mean that we should change them to deal the same amount of damage in my opinion, diversity is welcome
Hi Tim, i believe that dragon flame should be an end game weapon and should not be a weapon where players wear it like the low lvl weapons until they are able to get a good one and cast it off. coming to my other point is, speaking of dragon flame, close to no one wields it or actually no one wields it, i spent 3 weeks using owl on dragon flame, and there werent a single dragon flame in the market. A 16 wa shield is 100m+, a beginners crushed skull is less than 100m, thats always the starting point for almost all beginner paladins. Or get a morningstar (you can equip that at lower lvl!), anything, will beat dragon flame. I really sincerely hope that the staff would reconsider this for all the paladins out there that wants to wield a 2HBW as end game AND to give the BW paladins some diversity to choose between 1H and 2H like all the other warriors!
Consistency is for swords and the higher and lower end hits are for blunt weapons; therefore, the damage cap affects blunt weapons more. It's not so much a consistency of hitting the damage cap, but how much damage is reduced when it hits. There are plenty of Paladin's that can hit the damage cap without SE.
I think the main problem is how affordable crushed skulls and maple shields are. Tim's point stands in a world where the 1-handed set up is difficult to achieve but as long as these items are not removed from the economy, their prices will continue to fall. The other problem is that no one is going to bother scrolling perfect dragon flames because they are not as strong. This means that if you want a perfect one, you have to make it yourself. Scrolling a perfect weapon yourself is obviously not as cost efficient as just buying one that already exists unless you happen to be really lucky. I think the easiest solution is just to give the multiplier for 2H BW a bit of a buff. There is no way to make maple shields/crushed skulls rarer since they're already in the server, so the most logical solution to me is to make the 2H BWs hit a little harder. They don't have to do more damage than 1h weapons, but it would be nice if the numbers were a bit closer. I think a 13 ~ 14% DPS difference between the two options is much too large of a gap considering people will pay 30b+ for 5 ~ 6 main stat on a Ring of Alchemist. People will pay crazy amounts for small upgrades. I think the potential dps difference could be halved (6.5 ~ 7%) and that would be fine. Most players are not going to settle on missing out on 7% damage to save money. If anything, it's a temporary solution for less funded players and a way for others to play the way they want to without making such a large sacrifice.
The truth is, Dragon flame has or will never be a temporary solution for less funded players, it makes absolutely no sense, Dragon flame is rare to obtain ( since its suppose to be an end game weapon). Less funded players will still resort to a dirt cheap crush skull with a 15 wa shield and that will over damage a well scrolled dragon flame already OR simply hunt some morning stars . It feels like a bad excuse not to buff 2HBW and coming up with "less funded players can use that temporarily". This is an end game weapon that is not balanced! Just like claymore /ST they happened to be made balanced and good, but we dont ignore the unbalanced end game weapon like Dragon flame and toss it into the "erm they can be used as toilet paper i guess" category. We can also say this is almost similar to " make claymore/ST slow attack speed and then say, 'thats temp for less funded users, then when they get stronger, they will switch to carabella + good shield'". Im sure the sword users will go on a outrage. Lets be fair with BW users. T.T In Reply to your buff suggestion to 2hBW : thank you for supporting this suggestion! tbh, any buff would be good. like what you said, just bring the numbers closer to each other. Warriors can select between 1H and 2H. Why cant BW users do the same. WEAPON EQUALITY !
