Make grims great again

For any newer players, I'm referring to "Forbidden Time" in the deep clock tower, the only map where you can find Grim Phantom Watch. I know this map was never great to begin with, but at least it was viable when other spots such as himes in Zipangu did not exist. Singapore came along and made both these maps obsolete but himes is still a great spot for certain classes at certain levels. So why is grims so terrible?

Climbing up and down constantly to get to mobs is painful. There is nothing in the game to increase climbing speed, so haste is pretty useless. For how difficult it is to get around the map, the spawn is quite awful as well but at least that gives single target focused classes (like NL and BM) an easier time. That being said, they aren't nearly worth it for such a small amount of EXP. It's a shame that maps that are packed with monsters are the only viable options in the game. This also causes leech to be much more dominant over grinding because mages can hit so many monsters at the same time.

I suggest you add some warps to make movement around the map easier and more fun. The idea for warps in this map has been around since GMS and I think it would be a great way to encourage players to hunt there. Buff their EXP and HP and maybe slightly increase the spawn. Not by too much, since you don't want to hurt classes with poor mobbing abilities (or create another mage haven). It doesn't have to be anywhere near as good as Ulu/Skele/Petri leech. I just want to not feel like I'm completely wasting my time when I'm there.

I think there are many more areas of the game that could use improvements but I decided to make a post about grims in particular because they're nostalgic and I feel like they deserve more love. I also feel like whoever originally designed the map/monster wanted this to be a good location because they drop the Blood Larceny, which is the best thief exclusive glove in the game for RC users. It's unfortunate that it's absolutely not worth hunting there unless you're doing the quest.

 

This issue plauges the entirety of lower clock tower, so if you suggest specifically for that map, it would be natural to ask "why not the other lower clocktower maps?".
I personally would love to see more mobility through warps in that area, but i believe that it will be considered not nostalgic by a good portion of the community, especially the admins.

 

I hope to wrap portals can be considered for other parts of Ludibrium Dungeon too, instead of limiting it to just where Grim Phantom watch spawn. These dungeon maps are incredibly massive, for some classes who lack mobility this can be climbing all the way back up can be very tedious.

I have even tried changing channels hoping to increase my training speed, maps like (El Nath: The Passage, Holy Ground and sometimes Orbis) will bring you the highest point of the map, saving climbing time. At best, CC-ing only occasionally brings you to only the mid-point.



I suggest simple wrap portals like this can be easily implemented, especially the staffs have recently tried buffing some of the dungeon monsters in hopes of attracting more players.

 

I guess the map is not nostalgic for everyone but it should still be balanced with the other maps. This is something Nexon never did, which in my opinion massively contributed to the downfall of the game. I could easily make a full topic on this, or ten of them, but I decided it's probably best to start with one map and test the waters. If they are willing to make changes here, that opens up a lot of possibilities for balancing other maps.

I think map balance is a very important thing that Nexon overlooked because they were more concerned with pumping out new content. I strongly believe that when you pump out new content but you don't maintain old content, you're actually hurting the game more than if you just revise the content that already exists. I think the Big Bang patch is a great example of this. Making old content viable is better than adding new content because you're giving the player more things to do without increasing the complexity of the game. If you do not balance those two concepts, you end up with an extremely large mess of a game, which is what Maplestory has become.

 

Could make the entire clock tower a feasible location for party training at all levels by implementing aformentioned ideas on the spectrum of LHC/party-based EXP bonuses only to Ludi/clock tower maps.

Ludi was a primary training location for most of us during the early versions of BB until Shrine NLC and Leafre came along. Things like DPT and MDT parties were the norm. A very nostalgic aspect but clearly dated in the current training meta. Certainly not opposed to having them brought back into the equation. Personally I like making formerly used maps/mobs more enticing over adding new maps/mobs entirely. Retains a lot more of the original style gameplay relative to all new content.

Overall I love the idea to bring life back into the training maps in Ludi, but feel as if increased accessibility would be insufficient in doing that. We need a more drastic change if we actually wanna see these maps being used again in a noticeable way.

 

I'll clear it up again, i personally like the idea, but i've seen enough threads like this one, which got the answer "that's how the map was in that version of gms, stop trying to chang it" or something along those lines. This argument is so weak and baseless, but it somehow manages to grind any feedback thread to a standstill

 

@Kaeru so you’re in favor of changing the nostalgic travels through clock tower to become easier for the sake of hopefully more participation but against doing the same for the dojo hall because the travel there is “nostalgic” and it would “open the gate to more changes”?

Care to explain how this isn’t changing nostalgic travel and opening the same door to more changes the same way the dojo board allegedly would?

 

@nosebleed You're really going to make that comparison? Do you see people using megaphones asking to train at MDT, grims, vikings, etc? If you want, I can keep a record of how many times a day I see people recruiting parties for dojo. The fact is, I don't need to. The dojo offers a great reward and every single character in the game is going to do dojo at some point if they happen to reach that content. It's literally the meta. So if it's that great of a spot, why do we need to have a warp there?

I don't know why I have to spell it out for you. If we had a new item slot called "compass" that gave 5 all stats with 3 slots and you could only obtain it in the clock tower.. I mean don't you think that would solve the problem? I'm not suggesting a change that drastic but if you can't understand the difference between making useless content useful and making very useful content more useful then I don't know what to tell you.

The whole point of the discussion here, which you seem to have missed completely, is that we should be focusing on improving content that is not viable. Adding a warp to dojo is the exact opposite thing.

Edit: I didn't notice that you even agreed with me in your earlier post. So are you retracting your opinion because I think the dojo warp is a bad idea? I also don't know why you keep throwing around the word "nostalgic". I haven't said that we should keep/remove anything from the game for the sake of "nostalgia" and I happen to be completely against that.

 

Yes, it is a perfectly valid comparison because you are against eased accessibility for one map but in favor of it for another. It does not work this way. You cannot pick and choose based on your own personal feelings ('oh em gee one has a reward' is not valid reasoning).

The clock tower is 100% accessible and viable as it is. People may choose not to use it, but that's just how this version of the game was -- Ludi wasn't a hot spot or common training ground in our version of the game.

Either you're in favor of making transportation easier or you aren't. Additionally, in this version of gMS Dojo was *actually* used as a recruitment hall. Ludi's deep maps were almost obsolete. If we want the game to be similar to our server's version in gMS, applying accessibility to the former to encourage recruitment inside of Dojo is far more nostalgic and representative of the game in this current version than increasing the ease of transportation inside of the clock tower which was never a thing.

 

I'm sorry but you're the only one speaking out of your own personal feelings. I'm speaking as someone that does game development. Grouping the entire subject as "transportation" is incredibly idiotic.

Adding teleports is only one of many ways that you could solve the issues with the clock tower, and it has absolutely nothing to do with warps that allow you to go from one continent to another instantly. The fact that you cannot make this distinction is surprising.

I also don't think you understand what the word "viable" means. The definition of viable means "feasible". This translates to "worthwhile". I would love to hear how you think deep Ludi is worthwhile and the dojo is not. It's not even that it's not a common spot. It's not a spot at all. Just because one of a million players maybe visit this map and because it's not completely removed from the game doesn't make a difference. It's not a viable map. Dojo is already viable. It doesn't need to be worked on.

 

You are kinda going off topic, if you have grivances with his inconsistencies, pm him. This thread is for disgussing the suggestion, not attacking his opinions from different threads.

 

Uh, dude, the board would only teleport you into the Dojo Hall. Once you leave the Dojo Hall, the board would teleport you back to where you originally were (the town the Dojo board was in). It doesn't teleport you to a different continent.

I didn't say that Dojo isn't viable. They both are. Ludi can be accessed with ease, and used for its purpose entirely. Dojo can be accessed with ease, and used for its purpose entirely. They are both viable/feasible by definition. People not using something does not mean that it is no longer viable. Viability has nothing to do with the amount of usage taking place. If you believe so that would be your own misinterpretation of the definition.

 

fea·si·ble
1. possible to do easily or conveniently

This is straight from the dictionary. Is leveling at grims feasible? No. Is making money at grims feasible? No.

Okay so it's not a cross-continent teleport because you're only teleporting inside the PQ area? So by your logic, as long as you're only teleporting to one map in another continent, it's not a cross-continent teleport? Does that make any sense to you?

 

Actually, yes to both of those, and to all of the clock tower maps. They haven't changed from their state when they were primary training maps. They are just as viable as ever. Other things becoming better than them doesn't make them no longer viable.


Can a player still go to Grims and train/level up with just as much ease as they could back when Grims was a primary training map? Yes
Can a player still go to Grims and make mesos with just as much ease as they could back when Grims was a primary training map? Yes

You would have to be arguing that these deep tower maps were NEVER viable, and that is disproved by the fact that it was once a primary location for training. Since no changes have been made to them, they are just as viable as ever before.



Is a fully functional 1990 Civic no longer viable/feasible because a better, more efficient 2019 model of Civic came out and people prefer those instead? No, but that is what you are saying.

 

A 1990 Civic is no longer feasible in a world where 2019 Civics are more available at a cheaper price. If you don't understand that, it's you that is misinterpreting. Just because someone might own a 1990 Civic doesn't mean that it's more feasible than owning a 2019 Civic.

It burns more gas, it costs more money and it causes more accidents. How is that "feasible" to you? If nine out of ten 1990 Civics just randomly exploded at some point, would it still be "feasible" to drive just because it hasn't happened to you yet?

 

Feasible = able to be made, done, or achieved. (Cambridge and Merriam for citation)

Wrong, and your examples are completely off base (like where did the explosion nonsense come from?). I didn't say the 1990 Civic is more feasible. Please represent what I say accurately if you choose to engage in discussion further, you're skewed what I have said multiple times thus far.

The 1990 civic functions fully. It drives, it's just as safe as it was when it was just released, and it uses just as much gas as when it was just released. There have been no changes on the 1990 Civic from 1990-2019.

I think the term you are looking for here is "inefficient" rather than "not viable" or "not feasible". While grims has absolutely become inefficient the same way a 1990s civic has, it is still fully functional and players are still fully capable of utilizing it for all of its intended purposes (training, farming, bossing [pap], and questing).

Costing more money and using more fuel do not make a car no longer viable. Causing more accidents is based on the driver rather than the vehicle because as I have explained these weird scenarios you're making up with explosions and accidents aren't reflective of the example I outlined. There are no issues with the Civic which will cause it to explode or drive into other cars even though you've somehow developed the idea that this is the case.


The 1990 civic can get person from point A to point B just as the 2019 civic can. Just like Grims can get you from 1-200 the same way Skeles can. One is just more efficient, and feasibility isn't based on efficiency.

 

Is this the page you used? https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/feasible

If feasibility isn't based on efficiency, then why is it that on this same page it says "possible to do and likely to be successful". This is the English language, bud. Some words have more than one meaning.

Is it "likely successful" for a person to train at Grims until level 200? If not, don't waste my time posting your nonsense here.

 

https://bbb.hidden-street.net/monster/grim-phantom-watch
Grims are a level 98 mob. It was always challenging (slow) to train there at a higher level.

Possible? Yes

Likely to be successful? Just as likely as ever, all about the amount of time put in just like your likelihood of being successful on any training map.

They are just as likely to be successful as when Grims was a primary training location. Grims has not changed since then. So I repeat: either it was always unfeasible/unviable, or it was not. If the map hasn't changed, and the mobs haven't changed, what is changing the viability from then until now? Another mob/map's efficiency does not alter the viability or feasibility of Grims and their map.

Can players still train there the same way as before? Yes

Can players still level there the same way as before? Yes

Can players still access the map the same way as before? Yes

Can players still do the quests there the same way as before? Yes

Can players still farm there the same way as before? Yes

Just please stop saying it is not a viable or feasible location. It is. It is just an inferior/inefficient option the same way it was an inferior and inefficient option in the gMS versions of the game we are currently playing.

Something being inefficient does not make it no longer viable or feasible. Understand this.

 

It's just as likely to be successful grinding to 200 at grims as buying leech at petris? If that's how you feel, fine. It's still not the point of the discussion.