Making the quest materials untradeable will effectively prevent hackers from taking advantage because they are under the risk of a permanent ban as soon as they use any kind of hack. They also leave records on the server I believe. The issue with tradeable materials is hackers farming them with throw-away accounts and drop trading to their mains, which is hard to trace. Buying ap resets takes a very long time even if you have the money (you won't find tons of people selling hundreds of AP resets at the same time). The supply of AP resets is limited by the number of people voting in the server, including the vote abusers. That limitation prevents the rise of the absurd number of heavy washed characters in a short span of time. If there are 1000 AP resets being sold in a week on average, only 1 cheater with infinite hacked mesos will be able to buy all those AP resets to make one 15k+ HP character. All the other hackers will have to wait for more sellers to appeal since AP resets cannot be acquired by other means. If HP can be purchased with raw mesos, there's 0 limitations and nothing will stop hundreds of cheaters from making heavily washed characters on the very same day. For e.g, when I made 18k potential HP sair, I bought over 1200 ap resets. Finding the sellers and trading alone took over 2 weeks although I had enough money to afford them all. It may also raise a high suspicion when buying in bulks as a new player (I've caught numerous people when they bought/sold bundles of AP resets). The same goes for buying leech. Leech sellers aren't present 24/7 altho they seem to be present everywhere and this route takes way more effort and time than it would if one could just pay mesos to increase their HP. These methods are more complicated stepwise than simple pay-and-go method.
If the turn in quest required paying mesos to an npc, these transactions would be logged on the mains, and even easier to track than people drop trading etc. A new character dropping 40b into hp in a short time like you are suggesting would be suspicious. However, what about putting a time cooldown on the quest then (i.e once per day etc) as mentioned previously? Ideally, the constraining factor for the average player would still be meso cost, not time, but for the situation you note with a large meso supply this would hard cap gain rate to something that could be reasonably expected.
Unless the mobs in the quest will be in a map that is unfriendly to mages, they could still be used to farm the quest item. If the mage is in party with the chara that does the quest, all the player needs to do is search the map for drops once in a while. B>Hp quest service doesn't sound impossible. Im highly against infinite questlines as well. I believe the take of the devs so far is correct. Just insert HP into a reward from hard content, like dojo belt and medal. That would slowly increase the playerbase's hp while also encourage them to try all the content
Tbh, even if it wasnt that costly, i'd say it doesn't help. Hp items should be gainable from content that doesn't need high hp, or we are just going to get stuck in place. There needs to always be a way to gain access to the next hp upgrade via getting some or all of the hp upgrades that came before it, so that it will lead you along through content you are capable of doing. For example, it would've been cool if the neo tokyo earrings were untradeable, and they gave high hp. That way you get to increase your hp in preperation to the difficult bosses ahead
I admit, I haven't read all the pages, I've skipped several but based on arguments stated there are several things: 1. Those who claim that HP washing needs to be luxury good for people who planned their characters from the beginning and have money to do so are imo wrong. Who says that quests that give HP have to be easy? If there's already alternative quest to Zak JQ which takes 10h+ (at least according tocomments in the guide), why aren't there quests that take 15h+ each that give HP based on what class you are? (E.g being a NL/Sair you get 500 HP while being a Hero gives you 100, because you don't actually need more) 2. Current mechanics require the conscious decision whether you decide to suck early or late. There are two options: a) You HP wash - wear INT gears, have 200+ base INT which makes you absolutely unable to train on your own, because your main stat is 200 poitns lower than non-washers which drives towards making leeching a thing and creates lazy high lvl people who climbed their way to the top by exloiting mage classes b) You lvl up faster but are unable to join bossess (as Minsy said - take into consideration reality - noone will take non-washer into HT party) and survive without at least very good (preferably godly) class awareness and mechanics 3. (this one might be controversial f3) Why are some classes required to wash whereas some aren't at all? Hero and Pally were buffed because their dmg wasn't relevant but imo, it wasn't the point. If you can spend all the money on equips, these classes will be much better than NL which has money only to wash. This made them even stronger compared to washing-oriented classes, because, let's face the facts, HP makes them stronger, not weaker, even if the DPS is slightly smaller. Either make mages and warriors wash to be a relevant, end-game characters like other classes, or don't demand other classes to wash at all. 4. There are people who just started the game (haven't played Maple at all) or played the game on characters that don't require washing. I actually met them around CPQ and grinding maps. They are unaware of the fact that they are required to wash to play game at some point (yes, I am aware of the fact that it's not fully required and people can grind on mobs or not attend HT). Making people remake characters because they haven't washed is absolutely, completely, 100% wrong. Either inform people that are attending to create washable class about the fact that if you are unfunded, at some point the game gets almost impossible to be played, or make the game playable for them by introducing other sources of HP. 5. Who the hell thinks that performing the insane calculations on how much to wash, what to wear, how much INT one shall have is a good idea?! The game makes people do the maths in order to play the game efficiently? How? What for? Introducing calculators that do the work for you but still - you once forget to wear INT gear on lvl up and the result is diffenet? Jesus...
Reducing boss damage or making defence stats more useful are good options too, instead of adding customized ways to increase HP
True. But aren't there classes that use bathrobes, etc to increase their DEX/LUK/STR? That's significant because having 100+ def from lvl 100/110 overall would change alot.
To be honest all classes kinda need to wash (except archmages and non bossing bishops) For drks washing is pretty much a must if you want to zerk, heroes/paladin only get like 12k HP unwashed if I'm not wrong so a bit of washing is needed to tank touch damage from all the bosses and to sed more safely, and even for bishops washing is very useful if you ht often because it will allow you to tank hits without mg when you get dispelled.
Bear in mind that even if you have high HP through washing, it is still hard to participate in a Toad/Horntail/Neo Tokyo boss run on a daily basis. Toad: The jump quest is difficult. Also, hard to recruit people (16k HP, mules, LV175+ etc.). I rarely see people smega R > Toad. Horntail: Need to kill Manon to get elixir and enter. Also, scheduling a Horntail run takes a lot of time (since there are lots of conditions you have to fulfill in order to join), and duration of the fight is very long. Neo Tokyo: Long & hard pre-quest. So far I only took part in 4 Horntail runs and 3 Toad runs on my LV185 washed Night Lord, and sometimes I doubt myself: "Washing for what when I can not join Horntail/Toad frequently?" I totally agree. The boss damage is the problem, not HP washing.
Bossing in oldschool Maple requires zero skill since there are no cooldowns on potions. A good example of this is Breath of the Wild which has unlimited food usage which is often quoted as one of it’s biggest flaws. Imo the only true fix to HP washing is to fix this underlying issue. There must be more challenging mechanics to bosses than simply “your hp must be above this line”. This would probably require major coding to of some sort though to rework bosses or add new end game content. Realistically, all the suggestions like adding other methods for hp or changing defense formulas are good so that the level 1-120 experience would be more playable and there’d be a lower barrier to entry for this server.
That requires to completely redesign the game. Even if it was possible, it goes against the core values of the server, where they want people that played GMS in the past to feel at home once they boot royals for the first time. And sadly, I've suggested defense changes in the past in the feedback section, but due to the new source limitations, there's not much that can be changed about how the game handles the formulas of damage and defense. So this solution is a bit out of reach as well.
It’s actually quite debatable whether reworked bosses or new end game content would irredeemably violate player expectations for an old school server. By definition, changing bosses or adding new content would not require reworking the entire game. I think the coding resources and time would scrap this idea, so perhaps it is not realistic. Anyway, if defense changes are out then I think alternative methods to achieve HP is certainly the best option. Personally, I hate washing and wish I could play the 1-120 experience but most party quests and training maps are dead because people are washing. Washing creates such a barrier to entry that I wouldn’t recommend MapleRoyals to my other gaming friends. Alternative methods to gain HP would fix these issues.
This has happened to me more than a few times already, where my friends know I’m playing a pre Big Bang server and they get all excited wanting to play their first character as an Assassin (popular for wannabe cool kids even today lel), archer, pirate... basically anything that’s not a warrior or a mage and then there’s me contemplating whether to not say anything to spoil their current enjoyment or give them the real washing talk
1: Outside of whether HP washing is a good or bad mechanic... what if the players who "can't get accepted into veteran runs" formed their own parties? Judging from the comments here, I think there would be more than enough for an HT party. I don't really play anymore, but some of my favorite memories of Royals were bossing with my friends, and for the most part until way later, we were definitely not pros. I'm not quite sure who is hosting these "veteran runs," but at least back in my day people mostly ran with their friends and would smega if they were missing a person or something. Yes, it's their prerogative if they want to reject someone who would cause them more hassle than normal, but that doesn't stop you from organizing your own run. Idk, maybe it's a clout thing where people just want to run with the "veterans" to say that they did. Maybe I'm just old and washed up, but I think bossing with your friends is better than bossing with people you don't really know, even if they are pros. And before any of you "ok boomer" me I'm a millennial lolok 2: Anyway, I just plain disagree with the assumption on which you've built your entire argument — that HP washing to that extent is necessary. If you want to talk about theory vs. real world, I used to HT all the time with attackers with wayyy lower HP compared to what apparently on this thread is "necessary," and I'd say our group was one of the more prolific HTers (we'd run two expeditions back to back, without fail, every day). Why ? Because they were my friends. How did I make these friends? We PQ'd together and trained together when we were puny low levels, also just random people I met along the way. Which... I guess people don't do anymore because of the Int-Wash-Leech thing, but if everyone here who apparently loves early/mid game so much just literally played the way they want to play together, there would be enough people for them to play with and then to boss with in later game (just make sure someone makes a DrK lol). Unfortunately, I also understand that it's really hard to go that path when everyone else is going the other way because MS is inherently a social game, and things just aren't really possible without other willing participants. I don't know how to fix that because it's now become literally a self-fulfilling prophecy. People who want to play early/mid-game can't because nobody will party with them or everyone sucks due to pure INT-ness. Once they finally struggle into later game, they don't have the natural friendships that one makes by grinding/partying through those levels, so they're forced to chase high numbers/HP to be accepted by established runs. They get fed up because they don't get accepted, so they start over by creating a "correct" character, making them now part of the original problem. Or alternatively, instead of trying to be accepted by established runs, they can make their own, stopping the cycle. But my point is, HP washing is only as necessary as you make it be necessary. Just because people are too lazy or just plain don't want to find a DrK doesn't mean that the game mechanism is as broken as you say it is. It's a luxury to not have to worry about your HP, so it shouldn't be something everyone has access to. I guess I don't see what's so wrong with people having less "meta" first characters, and then if people want to be "pro," they can make new characters. In a server with rates like Royals, it's really not that bad; if anything, it sounds more right than people's first characters being able to hit 30k HP off the bat. Just my 2 . (full disclosure... my characters in order of creation & play: unwashed NL, washed to max HP w/HB DrK, Bishop, 13k washed BM) P.S. I feel like I wrote basically this exact post in like 2017/2018. Can't believe we're still having this convo in 2019/almost 2020 lol
For me, the argument is not whether it's a "necessity" or not. More "hardcore" players will see it as a "necessity" while more casual players do not. By definition, it's not a necessity to HP wash and everyone, including the OP, knows this. It's about whether it's a good mechanic and healthy for the game or not. Personally, I don't think it is and I will explain why. A good game mechanic rewards players that excel at the game. HP washing is completely separate from the core game. It requires you to have knowledge of systems in the game that is not in any way useful for actually playing the game. In other words, HP washing does not require you to be skilled at Maplestory and it definitely doesn't make you a better player. It just requires you to know about in-game formulas and calculations that no players were ever intended to know in the first place. Secondly, a good game mechanic should be fun. I think everyone here (even the most OG players) can agree that HP washing is a complete pain in the ass. This isn't Math Story. Why should I have to be doing calculations that have nothing to do with the actual content in the game? It's very silly. Now it's okay for a game to have some bad mechanics. No game is perfect. But when a large portion of every player's experience is governed by a "mechanic" as terrible as HP washing, that's when it's a problem. I'm not even sure if I should even consider HP washing to be a game mechanic because it was clearly never intended to be in the game (unless it was deliberately introduced to milk players). Anyway, I don't think it's healthy for the game because it does nothing but punish players that don't understand arbitrary formulas. It especially punishes players that are unaware that HP washing is even a thing and work hard on characters only to realize that they will never reach the same potential of other players simply because they didn't realize there was even such a thing as an "HP wash". Also, it encourages leeching characters (another bad game mechanic, but that's an entirely different discussion) because players who want to HP wash a lot (or don't understand how it works) will be forced to not actually be able to play the game properly due to having too much of a stat they weren't ever supposed to have. Imagine that you're a new player that's never played the game before and you reach a high level without any knowledge of HP washing or leeching. How would you feel once you realize you will never be accepted in certain boss runs, even after working so hard and doing everything by yourself? No one likes being told that they have to redo their character simply because they didn't read up on the forums about some very outdated "feature". You could make the argument that anyone playing here should know about the nuances of old Maplestory, and you may be right, but the fact is that it's not the case. There are a lot of people here playing MS for the very first time (some of my friends included) and it's nothing but a nuisance to have to explain it to everyone.
I disagree with the dead maps and PQ's. Ive done KPQ, CPQ and CPQ2 constantly for past 3 weekends. There are people who play them. I didnt have a problem finding party, not even once. The maps arent dead either but its much harder to find people. GS, MP3, FOG and lots of others are still attended
I fully respect your view and it’s nice that you have great friends, but your post comes across to me like making friends and being social = Hp washing solved. Sure it’s not “necessary” for new players to want to wash but we should tell them the full picture. No HB = no boss runs, more stressful/unsuccessful boss runs, oh and Neo Tokyo and in the future PB... try that on your next washed char! We should not sell this idea of “no need to wash” if that’s not what they aim for at the end. If they fully understand and still choose to play their unwashed char, that’s fine to me, but more often than not people would rather future proof their char by first making mesos (usually mage) and then make a washed attacker. Being limited to bossing with friends and the necessity of finding HB are valid concerns to want to wash. Your friends and HB may not always be available, most of us are adults working/at college with limited time. It’s not always about being lazy. We can argue whether game mechanism is broken but first let’s be practical. I don’t think people recreating the exact same class but washed do it because they are aware and fully agree with the game design, but rather they wished they knew better earlier, instead of investing time on their unwashed character (just look at the sheer amount of HP washing threads over the years). The current mechanics force us to decide whether to be useless and wash early or permanently be unable to later, which is rather questionable. Lastly the self-fulfilling prophecy is a bit off for me because it suggests ppl who don’t pq because they wash = no natural friendships which is quite a stretch. But I can see where you’re coming from, and that’s why you should in fact be supportive of the idea of having more ways to gain HP even at late game, so people can enjoy the Low level grind instead of being an INT-boi, go out there and form natural friendships just the way we all like it!
