You are understanding my representation perfectly. When I used integer value of 1, that would be if HP washing were completely removed. But, that would be terrible for the server and veterans. I just used this value to show the other extreme compared to what it is now and how Grinding/PQ activity IS tied to HP washing. A better solution for the server would be if alternatives to HP washing were added, so a better number to shoot for would be like 0.50 do not add base int. The problem with the current state of the art is there are no options besides washing if you want your character to be relevant, which really sucks for new players, people who want to relive 1st-3rd job experience, etc.
I understand the point you're trying to make, but I don't agree with the numbers used to model the population as a whole or the association that HP washing is the reason why low level content does not exist. If you told me HS is OP and leech should be disabled, I would 100% agree with you because whether or not you agree with HP washing, none of it would be possible without HS + mage leech in the conventional sense. Instead, you'd have HP washing gear (int gear) readily available while you're grinding or training right before you level up instead of 400 base int brain dead leech to 135.
If people are not forced to add base int -> they can train at Low level spots by themselves instead of being forced to buy leech -> Low level content is populated. What’s so complicated about this? They can buy leech if they want but it will still encourage Low lvl grindingfor those who don’t want to buy leech
I think you're missing the point. Whether or not HP washing exists, as long as mage has global ultimates and HS exists, leeching will always prevail over grinding, so getting rid of HP washing does not solve the issue of non-existent low level content
The assumption you are making here is that everyone owns a mage/bs, would enjoy using it to leech rather than grind on their attacker, and also have the huge sum of mesos necessary to buy low level leech. I don't know if you tried it but having self-leeched many of my characters at Wraiths before CPQ1/2 was a thing, I hated every second of it (well thanks to that I get my hp quest etc but thats beside the point). Because there are simply NO alternatives when your character has base INT. Also mage ult and HS does nothing in party quest content. If you are actually participating in e.g. CPQ1/2 as an attacker and not a leecher, you would definitely get more exp than leeching at whatever equivalent leeching spot (or even cpq1/2 leech itself). Also some farming spots nets you less exp but more mesos which is something new players would aim for. Also here's what FireHeart said: I sorta get where you're coming from but I still think it is a step in the right direction. Reviving of low level content is awesome, but there's also the fact that players won't feel forced to remake their heavily invested unwashed character.
I'm not assuming everyone has a 4th job mage. I'm making the assumption everyone has access to buy leech.
..and your mesos needed to buy leech is gonna appear from thin air? This level of back and forth nitpicking is not getting us anywhere.
Yeah that's one of the ways indeed however the player can spend their NX however they want just like they can choose to grind instead of buy leech/make a bs to self-leech. Having an alternative is what we are aiming for here!
@NTR @FireHeart @VoiceOver @CWCW @sparky95 @Jooon @Ayane @LichWiz @Kaeru @Tsue @Dave Deviluke @Tect @kupsztat34 @Penny @Vector Ho @resum @Johnny @Joez Yo guys, I really wanted to summarize all the arguments in favor or against the changes suggested (including the suggested changes of course) Since you are probably the top contributors to this topic I hope you guys could help a bit? I don't mind doing all the dirty work but could you help me with the general direction just so i won't miss anything? (btw sorry if i missed someone to me every comment is a contribution ) I really want some people who just too lazy to get into this to have an easier time doing so
Okay, I just completed Auf Haven/Blaze Core PQ today. Jooon was looking to see if I'll make a comment on this thread during the run but I was going to make one regardless. I'll clarify this... My Nightlord is my first character on this server and is level 191 with 9761 hp and is washed to the upmost that it can be. I have Legendary Collector Medal, Black Belt, Maple Earrings, Rudolph's Shiny Nose, Blackfist Cape, Zombie Army Ring, and Pumpkin Pie Ring. During the run, I was playing pretty scared to avoid dying but I didn't really get hit during the Guard and Core Blaze stages, so a unwashed Ranged could get through them. Auf Haven is a different story. I managed to not die while almost everyone in the run died once/twice during the Auf Haven boss due to me just fighting passively. I will say that HP washing is required for Auf Haven since there was a few times I had 30~50hp remaining of my 9.7k HP pool. Let's be honest, you can't realistically expect a Dragon Knight/HB mule to be available and you have to factor in the Drk dying (since some of the mules on standby died during the run) in addition to the dispels going on. If I didn't wash, I'd have died early in the Auf Haven fight and might have been out for the entire run. I will mention that the rewards were straight up garbage. 6 coins, Auf Haven Card, 5k nx, Auf Haven Circlet, a scroll, Pinaka, and random assortments among several attackers (some of them muling multiple chars). Spoiler I'm pretty sad that I couldn't get to read the quest dialogue or accept the last quest for Auf haven because things were rushed through even though first-timers were in the run
The parent comment to this side conversation was whether or not HP washing was responsible for early game content being dead. I replied to this statement saying no that's not the reason and that leeching and HS is to blame for early game content for being dead. I don't understand why someone's ability to make mesos in the game is relevant to the conversation. Like another user mentioned above, voting everyday generates 40m for free per day. You keep drawing focus onto this idea that people want to grind from lvl 1-135 and that HP washing is killing this ideal. Where are these people that want to grind from lvl 1-135? One answer is Ironman and the ironman community. If that is how you would like to play the game, free from HP washing or leeching that is the route you can take and the people you can share your similar ideals with. You talk about having alternatives, but by you offering to eliminate HP washing or introduce a new way to gain HP, you're eliminating an aspect of the game that has been part of the original game. HP washing is not a new discovery from the birth of private servers and has been part of the official game during this version. I get it, and I've heard the argument of Nexon capitalized on people to spend $3.1 per APR or Nexon realized they messed up so they got rid of the need to HP wash post big bang patch, but there's a reason why we're playing on this specific nostalgic version of the server. If HP washing was something you did not want, then simply put you chose the wrong server to play in. Is it because of HP washing that we choose not to have DrK in party or because of convenience factor and faster boss runs? Because a NL without any HP washing + HB will have more HP than 9700 without any HP considered from medals or any other equips, so you won't risk the run of the 30-50 hp scenarios. I think the whole point of a group boss run is if a critical role or party member dies, the whole run could potentially fail. @xDarkomantis @Mimsy These are the pros for eliminating HP washing I've witnessed from the conversations I've been involved with in this thread: Toad is too strong and ranged classes that are unwashed cannot participate Auf Haven is too strong and ranged classes that are unwashed cannot participate HP washing killed early game content I agree that Toad damage should be toned down so that it's not restricted to just unwashed/washed melee classes or washed ranged attackers. I don't agree that Auf Haven is too strong. We're in the mindset of parties of 6 only with 1 BS, 1 SE and 4 attackers out of convenience for best split/exp. We disregard an entire class and party skill as a result and feel entitled to fastest and most convenient possible boss runs. One of the final bosses in the game should be challenging, and should rely on multiple parties. If you can do it with just one, then great! You've put the time and energy into creating the most efficient character and deserve to do so as a result. I don't agree that HP washing killed early game content, which is evident by non HP washing characters buying leech. It's HS + 4th job mage global ultis killing early game content.
My whole post above already talks about what you are asking. Yes, one of the reasons low level content is sparse is due to leeching. However you are simply downplaying the effects of HP Washing being a reason people stopped doing that content in the first place. More like they simply can't due to the base int the character has. Well because how else are they going to "have access to buy leech"? 40m is what? 1 hour of split leech? Your statement that everyone having access to buy leech holds no significant meaning when not everyone has the purchasing ability and the preference to buy leech. In that statement, you disregard new players, players that do not own bs/mages, players who are not rich enough to afford leech services and players that simply do not want to buy leech. If your answer is make a BS/mage and earn that money, then well it's efficient and good advice, but you have just proven my point that there are simply no alternatives. Again, primarily new players, players without bs/mage, players who can't afford leech, and players who would rather not leech if there are alternatives (me!). Fireheart also mentioned players who want to relieve 1st-3rd job experience but still want their character to be relevant. This part is obviously subjective but it includes many players whose nostalgic experience does not revolve around repetitive bossing and full map ult but instead grinding it out at these low level contents. To be specific, being able to grind at low level content is just a benefit we get if the main idea of not needing to add base int/ways to gain excess mp is introduced. It is something that will naturally occur if players know they don't have to remake their character or be forced to play unwashed if they choose to grind. Just because some unwashed players choose to buy leech does not invalidate my whole argument. Buying leech is a matter of convenience. Unwashed players who can afford to do so can do whatever they want. The point is that as a washed character with base int, it becomes a necessity because there are no other alternatives but to leech. To reiterate, we are not removing HP washing mechanics, we are trying to make it better.
I am not downplaying the effects of HP washing being a reason people stopped playing low level content. I am saying HP washing has no connection to low level content not being utilized. You keep saying high base int characters are the reason the game has no early game content. What if there is no early game content because we don't have an influx of new players? What if there is no early game content because regardless of whether or not someone is HP washing, leech is being utilized to bypass the early game? What if there is no early game content because majority of the community is no longer playing lvl 10-70? The point I'm making is that saying HP washing is a major factor as to why low level content is not being utilized is a stretch. Again, new players and the ability to afford leech has no merit to this argument. The reason leech is so prevalent in this server is because that is the preferred method of leveling in low levels until bossing is accessible from 135+. There is nothing stopping you from enjoying 1st - 3rd job content or experience. There is nothing stopping you from grinding and training during these levels if you choose to do so. I don't see how someone who has high base int and leeching is preventing you from such an experience. If your whole thing is about enjoying those aspects of this version of Maplestory then you already can experience that. Like any competitive MMORPG, there is a "meta" that is followed whether it's item builds, skill builds, etc., and if you choose NOT to follow that "meta" then absolutely you should be at a disadvantage. It absolutely invalidates your whole argument regarding early game content because you're saying HP washing is a huge factor as to why it's so dead. I don't understand the second part of your argument in this. Are you changing your stance from 'HP washing is killing early game because leeching' to 'HP washing is forcing high base int characters to only leech?' You talk about nostalgic experience, and to many of us HP washing is part of the nostalgic experience because HP washing was unobtainable to me as a kid because I couldn't afford APR @ $3.1 each. In a private server where vote NX is available and APR can be bought with mesos, I absolutely want to live this childhood dream out.
Maplestory is an MMORPG, a big part of its design is leaning on the population of the game [EXISTING] to function like it was meant to function. A lot of people are nostalgic for the early game experience, but not just because of the skills, quests, and mobs of that lvl range, but the experience of that community. Be it party questing and trying to join a party in a bustling hub map, or going to a popular grinding map and trying to find a party to grind with. Having value for lower lvl gear and trading with others these items. I personally believe that this server's rates is the biggest contributer to low activity in lower levels. No matter how you look at it, its super easy to reach 3rd job, even without broken stuff like leeching. After 3rd job there isn't as much community content anyways so people just do a mad rush to 4th. But the death blow to the low level is without a doubt the characters with base int for washing, these are characters that could never participate in any of the low lvl gameplay even if they wanted to. I, for example, love playing pre 4th job gameplay, but when i made my characters that had int in them, i had no choice but to self leech them. The problem is that the meta doesn't give you an option to reach the same result but with more effort, without hurting the low lvl gameplay. There is no way to start investing money later on and still wash your hp. Believe me that some people that reached the endgame without washing would love to pay double from how it would cost to wash if they had done it from the get go. If it was possible, people that are more casual wouldn't feel forced to go with the meta, cause they could fix their hp later if they'll regret it
Pretty much 110% this. Nostalgia for early game experience and community like a MMO >< No choice but to add base int/self leech due to the meta
But why does one want to HP wash? For convenience sake? We've established that only toad for ranged characters is impossible and Auf Haven as mentioned by a few users is gameplay mechanics dependent more than total HP. We keep circling back to nostalgia and you introduce game design and function. I remember in GMS always having a DrK in a party for bossing for HB, but in royals we exclude that and say well that's not realistic. Early game community isn't going to suddenly grow because we've removed or changed the HP washing mechanic. The reason early game existed in GMS for long as it did is because there was a constant flux of 10's or even 100's of thousands of new players in the 1st-3rd job level. This community is approaching 6 or 7 years old and the playerbase has been hovering around 1000 players. Even if you doubled the number to 2000 players you're not suddenly going to fill KPQ, LPQ, and all the early level training hubs. The scale for comparison is too different and HP washing removal or change isn't going to fix that. Look at any MMORPG. Once the community ages and the game isn't new, everyone ends up power leveling and rushing through the early game. This isn't a concept thats exclusive or new to royals. If you want that early level nostalgia experience, you have to join a new server when it launches.
Oh boy, I can't exactly blame you for not reading 10+ pages worth of discussion but I feel like many of your questions have a reply within this thread already. Why do people HP Wash if not for the criteria? More relaxing/Less stressful bossing experience More room for error for the party if players are washed vs unwashed No need to find HB every boss run Personal HP goals (30k hp shad @FuminoAya ftw) It is the meta to wash, FOMO If you don't wash early, you can't do it later ... These are just some reasons off the top of my head. Yeah you have a point, server population isn't as huge as back then, although I do witness an influx of new player but thats just my experience looking at my guilds/alliances. I also don't expect all of the places to be filled. But to say it won't help, that I disagree. I view it as a step in the right direction. I actually know a lot of people (also irl) who quit because the idea of being forced to make a bs/mage -> APR -> washed attacker seems too ridiculous for them but the other option is to lose out on all the benefits of hp washing as described above. The washing reality talk I had to give them was just depressing but I figured it's better than them wasting all their precious time just to remake their character because of how HP washing is designed. Who knows, these people might have stayed if the system wasn't this restrictive. We all know by now HP Washing is here to stay but that doesn't mean certain aspects of it can't be improved. You seem to have this strong viewpoint that if these changes won't magically "fix" everything about low level content, then let's not implement any good ideas at all. Nostalgia is subjective, just like how I don't share your childhood dream of wanting to HP Wash while you probably don't share my excitement of being able to grind at Forest of Golem and still be relevant later. Royals, being a "hp washing optional" server suits your nostalgic agenda well but please do not take our chance at nostalgia away from us if you have no good reason to do so when it is also likely to be beneficial to the server.
Even for people who are "nostalgic" about HP wash, is it really about the specific method? Is your nostalgia about the idea of leeching from 1-135 with 100+ base int, or is it about the idea of having an op character. Because if there are alternate means of gaining more HP, you'd still be able to fulfill that desire. At some point, we need to find a way to gather the like-minded players and have our own little community where we can party grind and whatnot... (unrelated: ultimates/leech are the "real" problem, but I think it's even less likely to be addressed than hp washing mechanics...)
