i finally hitted lvl 165 and reached the point where my gear allows me to 1h petri, and now it goes farther? This is frustrating.
I don't think 600 to 570 dmg is 30 int or magic attack more to reach 1hit, the dmg from the ultimate skill is a different method, hence it will need more magic, like 2290 as the guy in the post said.
Is it so broken now that we have to revert the changes so urgently? Instead of making 2 adjustments, why not just make the adjustments when more thought is given on what an appropriate buff/nerf might be for AM. As you mentioned the buff was done for a reason. I was not here pre new source, but I’d image it was adjusted to make AMs more viable. Should we be moving back to something that also did not work out before moving to something new?
Why are we nerfing leeching when we should be BUFFING solo training??? This decision is literally making some of my friends, who aren't able to easily achieve the 1220 1HKO Petris bar, want to QUIT. You guys are making a decision that is going to make a decent portion of the population upset, instead of making the remainder of the population happy. Buffing solo training would make everyone happy. That's what we really need.
Think about what your saying... A buff to solo training is a buff to leech, Leech is a terrible plauge that has spread through this server. If nerfing leech causes leechers to leave then Good. they were part of the problem. and Didnt actualy want to play maplestory for what it is.
when lowering the damage of ultimates just lower all 3 classes down by the same amount, so the balance that was added in new source still exists.
If you expect this nerf to decrease the amount of leeching, then you will be disappointed. AM are only able to sell leech at petri, ulu2 and arguably ulu1 because hs mules only max out hs at lvl 81. With level 1 genesis. A lvl 120 bishop can provide leech up to windraiders i.e lvl 75. From 75-90. They can either sell ws/sb/harps then ulu1. The requirements for ws is not high. The nerf on ultimate will not affect leeches because it only really affects petri maps. And this nerf does nothing to those A/M that already have decent gears and at high levels. Also, with the expected buff on skele spawns, ppl can just replace buying petri leech with skele leech. Sure, there are less sellers now, but this will not address the need to leech in the first place. Hence, this nerf is only to address the apparent disparity between bishops and A/M’s damage output. They are working on alternatives to curb leeching, but this is not one of them. A big reason why many ppl buy leech is because for hp washers with high base int, it is not feasible at all to grind since the damage is pathetic. Even with buffed pq experiences to be many times of leeching, buying leech still makes plenty of sense. The GMs recognize this, which is why they are providing alternatives to hp washing in the coming patch, which should decrease the lvl of hp washing required for most, and their dependency on leech. As for other buyers who are buying leech because they feel that leeching is faster than grinding, a buff to solo grinding as mentioned above, which at this point is not stated if it will be included in the next patch, will make grinding more rewarding than buying leech.
I don't consider reverting it after a year urgently, at some point you have to make a decision. Your assumption that it did not work in the old source is something I don't consider accurate, so comparing these two doesn't work, and it would be very wrong to take my words as a confirmation that you can't make an Arch Mage, I have had mine since 2014. The decision made years ago to buff Arch Mages was before my time so I can't speak for those exact reasons, but it's not hard to see reasoning for it, in the old source Arch Mages were more uncommon than Bishops, but they provided their own niche, being cheaper to fund, and had more damage. The fallacy here I think was the idea to buff something that wasn't really broken, and mage ultimates are already so impactful that these buffs took it over the top.
You are clearly not thinking this through if you think that it's impossible to buff solo training without buffing leeching. First thing they can do is increase exp gained from killing a mob, but at the same time reducing the amount of leech exp a party member can get, while also increase the loss of exp sharing. And reach a balance point where it's still similar. This might affect boss exp gains though so it needs to be done carefully. Second option is buffing many training maps that are not ideal for normal leeching through either exp or spawn buffs, which will open up more training options. Choosing carefully which maps get the buffs is important to avoid leeching migration to those maps. And im sure there are more ways of tackling this problem than simple nerfs. But this is not the thread to talk about buffs and nerfs for solo training, its about the problems of AM's balance, so lets leave it at that.
Back to topic, I think that mages are still a very niche class, they only shine on ulu 2, and petri, if that's not a niche i don't know what is. And as a person that hates to sell leech in the first place, all i do is grind/leech my own characters, so im not becoming flithy rich from it either. I'm still kind of confused at what this change will bring to the table, how will it make this server more enjoyable? Leeching demans will remain, without a doubt, causing leech price inflation. AMs that were in it for the money will either grind a few more lvls or invest a bit more money and they will eventually be able to sell again, or just quit focusing on their AM and move to Bish, which will cause prices of gen 20 and 30 to rise even more, and skele will be over populated. IL will now need to be around lvl 185 to 1h obv4, which is their end game goal, which is far harder than other classes lvl end goals. FP will become inferior to IL on almost every aspect expect wand prices when they hit 4th job, which from what i heard, was a problem in old source (people dropping meteor 30s like trash), so they only get to enjoy fast lvling on 3rd job. overall just a "feel bad" update for any mage that is on the brim of a damage goal. Bish becomes the ultimate mage as it can do anything from low lvl leech, to end game leech and bossing, leaving normal mages to be for people that are just addicted to grinding, not ideal balance to say the least. Things clearly can't stay as they are, but rushing for solutions without thinking it through will make no one happy.
What I gather from all this is that Archmage's and Bishop's will have both their own personal high level leeching spots, while Bishop's are also better at lower level leech and provide useful support skills that make them useful and necessary in almost every situation for a party. So we will go from Archmage's being better at high level leech to just being tied with Bishop's again? If the idea is to make Bishop's more viable, well they're already the most wanted class in the entire game on almost every endeavor. Even the so called leech master Archmage's have to force themselves to use the 3rd job version of Bishop's. Skelegon's aren't as popular as Petrighter's? Well Seal and slow is not as useful as Heal, Bless, Holy Shield, Holy Symbol, Resurrection, Dispel. If the idea is to slow down leech and ease of 1 hitting mobs then Bishop's should also get a damage nerf along with Mage's.
Pros of a bishop: - useful in bosses - low level leech - low mana cost - genesis has a faster cast time (don't need to cast booster too!) - don't need a hs mule Bishops are already the best at support and low level leech. Archmages only role post nerf would be slightly lower tma requirements to end game leech. (~1296ma to ohko w/ gen30 VS 1260ma w/ met or blizz30; this would be ~1285ma if ele amp is changed to 1.35) This is a difference of 7 levels and I guess the choice would be obvious for which is better if not for Petri edging out skeles by ~10% exp. Closing the bar between bishops and archmages will surely push AMs to extinction. I hope there isnt a buff to skele spawn rates too, cause that will truly render archmages obsolete.
Considering that Blizzard/Meteor/Genesis were Zakum/HT specific drops, if anything the current market prices is likely a reflection of which classes are mostly played by players. (Which was also kinda confirmed by the 2017 Census results). Bishops are still, by far and large, much more popular among the players due to its versatility in various aspects of the game. I personally see no issue with Archmages being better than Bishops in terms of leeching but loses out on the versatility that a Bishop provides (as mentioned by multiple posters above, not gonna relist them) However, the reasoning that "Archmages are cheaper to fund so they cannot require much less TMA than a Bishop to 1HKO" is inherently flawed because if that was the case, everyone would be running Archmages and the SB prices will reflect that. With the nerf of Archmages (and proposed increase in Skele spawns), Bishops will likely be the preferred leeching character as well, making it truly the all-in-one character. Gen20/30 would likely be more expensive People that play Archmages to leech other characters would likely change to a Bishop/quit, further lowering Meteor/Blizzard SB prices (By Andreas logic, we should further nerf Archmages because the books are even cheaper in comparison now? ) Bit of a rant, hopefully my thoughts were clear Edit: Forgot to add this If leeching was the problem, directly nerfing A/M (indirect buff for Bishops) and Skele spawn buff (direct buff for Bishops) is NOT likely going to solve the issue mentioned, all it does is simply shift the premier leeching classes from A/M to Bishops
If you buff Skele but nerf Archmage I think nobody will play archmage at all anymore and you'd ruin the class and make it unpopular like it was in old source The only advantages they have are being good at petri and ulu 2 and cheaper skill books, bishops are better at pretty much everything else: 1. Bishops got HS and don't need a mule but can just HS themselves 2. Bishops can do low level leech while archmages can't 3. Bishops got useful party skills like Res, Holy shield, Dispel, Heal while arch-mages only have meditation 4. Bishops can get free Zhelm/HTP at a low level by just providing HS and buffs while archmages can't join bosses even at a high level 5. Bishops got door which is a very useful skill while archmages need to rely on a mule to door them 6. Gene is faster than Meteor/Blizz, and also doesn't need a booster (while the booster skill got a slow animation) 7. Gene cost half the MP of Meteor/Blizz 8. Bishops are a lot more tanky with invincible that reduces all physical damage by 30% and elemental resistance that allows you to tank hits from HT head B/C, while the partial resistance of archmages is bugged and doesn't work
i dont get why meteor and blizz should have the same base damage if il mages get the advantage of obv2/4 grinding
This. The issue is muling. Nobody would have a problem with a level 140 FP mage being able to hit 1 hit petris if said mage didn't have a HS mule. In the past Bishop vs. Archmage thread (2015 - I'll link it below) a lot of players were suggesting AMs 'can make a HS mule so they're not really underpowered when compared to Bishops'. I was surprised by these responses when balancing: These players mean to tell us the 3rd job priest + 4th job arch mage combo is a good enough reason not to get a buff? Don't compare (FP/IL archmage + Hs mule) vs (Bishop), that's just unfair. If we're going to compare Arch Mages to Bishops do it the right way: compare their skills alone. I'm aware everyone owns a HS mule these days but why do you think that is? you believe its because AMs are op or because Bishops are op? Arch mages don't have HS so wherever they intend to leech isn't going to be efficient compared to Bishops. And to this scenario, the fact the solution is nerfing AMs is just crazy to me. Doesn't it feel like HS needs a nerf instead? I know many will disagree, I actually wouldn't want HS to be nerfed at all but if you REALLY think about it... isn't HS the whole source of this problem (thus making bishops the overpowered ones)? In my opinion (and keeping in mind I do have both a bishop and a high level arch mage, and I only leech myself so I wouldn't really be affected by this update when it comes to leech prices), ideally I'd want the following: Arch Mages being able to sell Ulu2, Tot (RoR and Oblivion) if that's ever a thing as you'd need a bishop anyway, and Petris almost exclusively while Bishops, being technically a support class, get to sell anything from Ulu1 to Teddies. There are still Wraiths, Sage Cats, WRs, WS, SB, Harps (gobies potentially) and Ulu1 for bishops. Lets not forget Bishops are required in boss runs while Arch mages are worse than actually having no 6th member at all. "Hey but bishops can do ulu1 and ulu2 relatively early": -5% damage penalty if using ele wands, give pyrope wands and staves some love. Now to me that's a good balance, in matters of efficiency: Bishops get their share: Levels 10 to 90 + no need for alts + bossing + farming + decent funding for their bracket. and AMs get their share: Levels 90 to 155/200 + requires alt for leech + no bossing + farming + decent funding for their bracket. Nerf Arch Mages if you want to but don't close in the gap between Bishops and Arch Mages as Bishops are clearly the dominant alternative. If we're talking about balancing then AMs MUST have enough appeal for anybody to at least consider playing the class. Oh, and please don't reply with a comparison between gene prices vs. blizzard/meteor. The fact both books are exponentially pricier than their elemental counterparts is a matter of supply and demand. There's a huge amount of bishops on the server, they all dream of getting gene20 and 30 and that's why their prices are as high as they are. Now, regarding the impact this update will bring... The following is what I expect to happen when the Staff releases the upcoming update: Bishops will get skeles back with their long overdue spawn buff. Skeles are a viable alternative to Petris, although (imo) not as good. I'm fairly sure there's way more bishops than both FP and IL arch mages combined (I'm sure there's a census out there somewhere) so you can expect skele maps to be busy. Higher supply would mean skele leech would become inexpensive... which would lead to a decrease in demand for Petri leech: Petri leech becomes cheaper. Now you could argue and say 'well yes, but now low level Arch Mages won't be able to sell leech so there's a lower supply of Petri leech thus making it expensive' but it comes down to a simple formula: Exp Gained / Meso Spent. It'll probably settle around prices we had before new source (probably slightly higher). This is really demotivating to some players. I've had a chat with my guildies (5 guildies) and some feel like they gotta start a bishop now (as they are 120-140 FP mages) because petris alone is not appealing enough to play FP. Even @Andreas said the following back then: "(Sep-2015) Right now the only reason to play an arch Mage (except awesome skills) is for cheaper 1 hitting of petris, that's EXTREMELY bad. Bishops is the support for bossing, is a must have for all boss parties I/L Highest 1v1 damage of mages. F/P Highest mobbing damage less 1v1 damage." Source: Suggestion: ArchMage Balance Discussion
Agreed! Leeching shouldn't be nerfed but instead there should be a system in place that incentivizes training. A system like Lion Heart Castle might be great -- where there's a series of maps that have mobs with crazy high HP/EXP that require full parties. There was also a ~+50% EXP boost for every member in the party.
"Stop leeching at it's source"? I believe that'd be the shared party EXP, not any specific classes. Any class can theoretically give leech; it's just the map destroyers are the most efficient at it. (Where's that Low-level Dragon Roar leech tho?). If I were to suggest a way to actually nerf leech at it's "source", make the shared EXP between High Levels to Low Levels more sensitive. We already have the factor that gives less EXP between high and low level characters in a party based on their level gap. Beef up that multiplier or whatever and I think you're good.
Comparing that duo to bishops is quite valid as I do not remember the last time I've seen a lvl 160+ arch mage without a priest of their own. It's one reason for favoring bishops since not having to open another client to HS offers some relief. While a fair share of players prefer as few clients open as possible, there are others (such as myself) who don't mind having 3-4 clients up in one session. DrK leech was probably more popular back then because Dragon Roar wasn't stunning people for 2 seconds like it's supposed to
