In Discussion Class/Skill [Feedback Request] Skill Changes and Balancing

Yea I can understand where you are coming from, the reason that this class is unpopular it’s because of its ship mechanics.

If the server were to implement changes for the class, I think the direction of the change is important, like the identity of sair in the current meta. What outcome to achieve for the class, comparing with all the classes. For me personally, I think it’s identity should be “the greatest DPS class, but require skill to play”. And it is an identity that made those who main sair, proud.

With this identity in mind, I don’t think we should lower the skill requirement for this class, or make it easier to play. So if we were to improve the speed/avoid/jump when mounting on ship, having the ship speed at 140%, isn’t so much a QOL improvement, yes it will make the class slightly easier to play in terms of more mobility, but it kinda loses its identity, the identity of a glass cannon with low mobility.

Spoiler: QOL improvements suggestion

1. Option to destroy ship
2. Able to cast echo on ship

Instead we should have the class shine on his identity, which is raw damage output (when played effectively).

It’s just that how do we define “effective”.

With equal funding, an effective sair should always outdamage a NightLord, that’s the identity of sair. Right now, I think the issue lies in sair is only the greatest dps class in IDEAL scenarios when the ship doesn’t break (Krex/margana). As for other bosses like HT, an EFFECTIVE (ship breaks 0-1 time in the entire HT run, casting octopi and gaviota everytime) sair should outdamage an equal funded NL, but it seems like it’s not the case in practicality.

So how do we benchmark “effective”?

I think this require testing. Gather 10 top Sairs in the server to test with a NightLord. Equal funding and full buffs. The outcome of the test should be “these top sairs should outdamage the NL, because they are Effective”.

Based on my experience, I think that right now even an Effective sair can’t outdamage a NL, and this isn’t right. Effective sairs should outdamage NL, instead of “sairs should outdamage NL in only Ideal scenario”.

that’s perhaps the issue of the positioning of Corsair as a class in the server. With so much practice, so much effort, to be effective, yet still can’t outdamage a single key pressing Triple Throw.

Why is that so? Should we increase the damage of battleship cannon then?

No.

I don’t think that we should buff the class in terms of the damage of the battleship cannon, as it is as strong as it needs to be.

it’s just that the damage is penalised heavily when sairs are not on ship. Which is why in my earlier post I said I agree with Gunzgaming on improving the other sairs skills like octopi, flame and ice, air strike or even rapid fire/gaviota.

If we can really showcase that an Effective sair will outdamage a NL with equal funding, then I believe sairs identity is concrete.

Again, I feel that the changes should match the outcome/identity of the class. Right now it seems like it’s not for classes like Drk, Hero, Marksman and Sairs.

 

Okay, you think the identity of the class is having the Best DPS while requiring skill to play. I don't think anyone would disagree with you on this. It's pretty well known already and I already have this in mind too.

First, let me say that I didn't suggest avoid on ship. I was trying to highlight the "speed" in your quote, not sure if you saw that. I don't know if you read my post here where I suggest mainly a speed boost with jump being optional if players want it (Battleship can't climb rope, so it'd be a bit pointless).

Second, you mention that Corsair has the identity of a glass canon with low mobility. I'd like to say this is untrue. Corsairs main will always mention using Recoil shot for repositioning, which is a fast mobility skill. Additionally, Corsair has mobility from its Dash (1st job) and Wings+Recoil shot movement (2nd job) which is superior to Warriors/Archers mobility (since they truly have low mobility). The Pirates class in general benefit from having their own selfish mobility compared to other classes. Buccaneers get Corkscrew blow in 2nd job that allows them to reach mobs better than other melees and can use it move onto different platforms with mobs by charging it up and they also have (Super) Transformation that gives them 140% speed and 20% jump starting in 3rd/4th job. Corsairs have their movement via Dash, Wings, and Recoil shot.

The issue in my eyes, is that Nexon implemented movement for Corsairs weird and kind of threw a curveball at players by changing the flow of the class 1st~3rd job vs 4th. They had a speedy class and then they threw the Battleship at players which gave players high damage on ship but oddly gave it low speed (not even matching your character speed stats).

Third, let's try to understand what QOL is. For me, I define the term as improving the process or control for the end user so that it can performed with less effort and/or with greater satisfaction.

You mentioned that you don't want to lower the skill requirement for the class, or make it easier to play. Unfortunately, you (and others) are contradicting yourselves with your own suggestions that are QOL to make the class easier to play (i.e. option to destroy ship purposely instead of letting your ship destroy naturally during boss runs). I'm not against QOL or just buffs for classes and from looking at yours and others suggestions, I agree with most of what you guys have written for Corsair.

----

Now, on suggestion of increasing Battleship's movement speed:

Does this interfere with the class identity of "the greatest DPS class, but require skill to play"? No, this is just a QOL that is in a similar vein of you and others suggestions. Improves the mobility of the class somewhat in a few scenarios. You'll still be able to greatly identify bad Corsairs from the good Corsairs.

Does this make the class easier to play? Yes, but so would you and others QOL suggestions too. So technically we're all in it together. This is only an idea of improving the movement of ship for current and future Corsair mains for grinding and bossing. It's not going to become a Silver Mane or Draco by any means. The main skill highlight of Corsair from what I can gather is the management of keeping up Octopi/Graviota uptime/placement and reducing Battleship damage to keep high DPS throughout a fight/grinding. I'm in no way trying to step on this gameplay aspect for Corsairs.

Would this cause more people to try out Corsair? Probably, yes. Not sure if the few people that play Corsairs want new people trying the class in order to maintain elitism.

Would a toggle for Ship speed work? I think so if current Corsair mains prefer 80% speed. Future mains can enjoy higher speed

I'm aware that Staff probably won't do the suggestion though... but thank you for responding with a passionate post

 

First of all, it’s great to have different perspectives and opinion, as everyone has them. Those who have mained sairs for years have it, those who are playing sairs have it, those who played sairs halfway but quit have it, those who never play sairs have it.

If all of us were to have the same perspective, there won’t be any discussion.

QoL to me is just Quality of Life.


I see that by having the option to destroy ship and the ability to cast echo on ship are improvements made to the games that make the players less likely to burn out or get frustrated and make the gameplay smoother but without necessarily altering it.

As I said earlier in my previous post, classes should be designed based on their identity.

Can you imagine Red Draco (the mighty red dragon) is moving at 100%?
Can you imagine Green/blue/red snail moving at 140%?

Why I disagree increasing the speed on ship, it is because it’s not its identity. As I can’t imagine a ship travelling at a “hasted” speed.

Ship is slow, hence there’s Titanic.

And yes, the torpedo and cannon travels fast, way faster than 140%.

And again, I feel that the changes should match the outcome/identity of the class. And I do believe that staff will do the changes if it is for the overall good.

 

Loved playing sair. But not having ship at all times is just Part Of It.
Dismount/mount speed increase is huge. If ship destruction is a consideration, you should still pay the same, or increased cd time.

Ship being a mount should mean haste shouldn't affect it, so I agree with that.
If anything ship should have less avoid when on it.
But ship having like a 20% stance would be amazing. That plus blind would be great (or if hero's also get a darkness effect back on panic).
Or a toggleable on/off anchor skill that gives 100% stance but you have to toggle anchor off to turn or move before you can dismount. More keys for more control. This could be a zero point skill in the beginner tab that you acquire automatically along with battleship.

Great buffs like these need counters bc late game raids and bossing game play become very important and skill/team oriented and shouldn't just give players more of an edge than they already have (potion spamming, pets, hp quests/washing, insane att potions) otherwise you're just clearing the road for faster lvl200s and economic flooding

Echo should certainly be castable on ship but I can go either way personally. Ship maintenance and down time is again just part of sair playstyle, like berserk, and its this commitment that should keep it top dps, very attentive play.


Wings should be castable in midair though, huge QOL. not for a double jump but as a feather fall if cast in air. It has a very limited wonky use with recoil only. Wing cast when falling on ship, or from a Plat, to then be able to recoil to one slightly lower, or catch a rope bc you cast wings in time would be incredible and give it massive utility

Hypnotize should ignore bullseye marked targets, it makes both redundant and unmanageable in situations where both could be used, like shao or dunas2.

I really don't think Egg should do such totally insane single target damage either, makes 0 sense, but giving it like a 20% chance to kb anything would make up for it when pinning off ship, which is how it's used

 

More than a year later since post creation, anything was actually implemented or is it just another word-count post?

 

Going through the list a couple stuff were added such as berserk buff (200->210), hero’s will buff, rechargeable arrows and maybe couple more I missed (was seal ever buffed to 100%?)

 

rechargeable arrows?

 

Royal Bow/Crossbow Quiver. You can check them in owl or pet ignore.

 

I'm guessing they want to be professional and have everything done at one time. There must have been intensive debates over the skill changes and the direction of the server as far as gameplay goes and retaining "nostalgia" while making things more modern. That and Karven having to deal with irl issues must have set back plans as Yee would have to pick up where Karven left.

 

Road to Beginner Class
Question 1> The motivation. Is a class lacking in some area they shouldn't?
Well, this class is not a playable variant, even at times stressful rather than fun, I think a light fix and experimental implementation will bring new veteran and casual players to try the class based on basic hits.
Question 2> What do you expect or hope the change will accomplish?
Move the market a bit towards polearms, one hand blunt and two handed Weapons even shields giving them something more value, besides as I said before bringing new players, because Reditt reviewed and many players who something fresh but at the same time with nostalgic touches .
Question 3 > Where does this proposition place a class or classes in the big picture?
It would be as an alternative of a determined explorer we could say that he is the son of Tristan the last brave warrior who without powers challenged the great balrrog and still died but his spirit resides until he finds a new stronger and more daring vessel
Question 4 > Does this change have its place in Royals?
It depends a lot on the Community that accepts it and on the ability of the staff to implement it since from what is known, they have too many pending tasks and few administrative hands, but still it is a game that we all love and that brings us happy moments when We return stressed from our daily activities.

Skill proposition:

Snail Protective(Active Skill): everyone who touches you is slowed by 10/20/40% and uses a snail shell with each use, depending on the color of the shell the protection varies
lvl 10+
Beginner Mastery (Pasive Skill): Increases mastery att on pole arms / one handed /two handed weapon and swords by 60% respectively
Damage Rage (Active Skill): Use 1% of total mana every second until depleted but gain 50% of your base damage
Tier 1 Damage Multiplier – Each hit has a 50% chance to double damage using 100 mana
lvl 30
Tier 2 Damage Multiplier – Each hit has a 50% chance to triple damage using 200 mana
lvl 70
Tier 3 Damage Multiplier – Each hit has a 50% chance to deal x4 damage using 300 mana
lvl 120
Final Damage Multiplier – Each hit has a 80% chance to x4 the damage using 500 mana

This last skill can be in the first skill box, marked as passive, but every time they go up to lvl 10/30/70/120 a point will be added, hence the difference of each one, just separate the descriptions in 1/2/ 3/4

 

Aren't beginners all about the challenge and not having skills though? If you use skills might as well make a warrior instead, it's like an advanced version of beginner

 

Hard truths for warrior mains

 

Could be, but a base damage buff wouldn't hurt after all, In addition to being a warrior, I would cease to be a beginner in consequence

 

I don't understand why there needs to be changes for Beginner. They're supposed to be a Beginner... not a "The Story Of How My Beginner Class Became The Strongest And Got To Level 200"

 

Remove recoil shot CD

(Tbh i just started a sair and i thought it didn't have one)

god forbid NL is the only class with a decent mobility ability (not counting mages)

 

corsair avoid stat change to 0.25 dex pls godddddddd

 

Thank you for taking the time to comment. I appreciate this. Let me respond to your comment.

This is an improvement over 80% that the majority of players will enjoy but still falls short of what Corsair needs in my opinion.

This is a false observation and analysis. If Battleship anchored you in place then it'd be understandable to make this assertion but Corsairs will almost always demount > reposition > remount to overcome the odd movement speed of the Battleship. It's possible that Corsairs in some situations lose DPS due to having to overcompensate for the low speed. This factors into the class being unfavorable to play.

No, it's easier to reposition from getting knocked back with higher movement speed than it is with lower speed. Also, you're not really trying to do any platforming so I'm not sure why you'd be under/over jumping.

I understand that you're under the assumption that ~140% movement speed on Battleship might be detrimental but I'm optimistic that it will be beneficial for Corsair mains both old and new. You have the ability to test this out with the Dev but if you and the rest of the Staff are unsure if 80%, 100% or 140% is good or not then please.... Give the community 1~2 months to try a toggle between 80/100% movement speed and 140% and then let the players inform you whether it's good or not. If it ends up bad then just disable the toggle and retain Battleship movement at 80/100% speed.

 

shads are busted. they outshine warriors in almost every multi-target/unit content (except cwkpq), able to hit 2 HT heads at once with their AOE, more targets at VL/LHC, able to do content that drks normally aren't able to, have insane amount of survivability, have higher single target DPS and they aren't heavily reliant on si/se, wtf.

make warriors great again !

 

feedback is nice and all, but to be honest at this point I doubt anything will be implemented in the foreseeable future, they just don't have the developer resources..

Spoiler

would you dare give a hero main hope?