If your issue is with the amount of people being able to make/play NL while ignoring other classes (and their support skills), the solution should have been to make HP washing much more of a challenge for NL instead of making it easier (upcoming patch). This would do multiple (good) things with no downside (other than new/unfunded players having no option but to bring HB if they want to main a NL or to pick a different class-which one could argue is a positive): 1. deter people from creating NLs due to the funds needed to wash - as we've seen from the complaints regarding the current washing system, it's damn expensive to wash a ranged char. to the HP needed to HT without HB at 15x-16x, and if we make that an even greater challenge it'll prevent even more new players from being able to main a NL (good thing in your opinion since 'everyone is getting NL and ignoring other attackers') 2. incentivize people to create, and in turn, bring DrK when bossing -- create a meta similar to gMS where a DrK was brought on (most) runs and seen as a vital class So now, instead of changing the actual class, skills, damage output, etc., it's all the same, only, if you wanted to play the highest DPS class in the game, you'd need to expend even more funds and/or bring a DrK on your boss runs (good thing-more variety and bringing the game back to the gMS meta). Only the best of the best could afford to play the best class, and this applies even more so if we begin to talk about bossing without HB. As it stands, by making HP washing easier, we're buffing NL and making it so that anybody can main one and participate with little-to-no washing. This is counterproductive to the goal of getting more classes involved and it only aids in creating more NL on the server since it becomes more affordable. This also deters people from creating/bringing DrK/HB on their runs as the base HP of everybody will be higher than ever before. Two negatives compared to my suggestion which brings two positives. tl;dr: nerfing/changing skills is a poor solution from my POV. Making adjustments to financially deter unfunded people from being able to afford the class is a far better alternative.
When Nightlord's are allowed to have so much hp it's no wonder they dominate so well. If hp washing wasn't a thing more people would make Warrior's which makes more Buccaneer's since NL's would need HB and more NL's would be dying so there's more hesitation in doing a majority NL party with randoms. Expensive gear and hp wash isn't needed for NL's to catch up to other classes, it's needed to destroy the competition.
All you're doing in making wash harder is hurting new players. Old players already washed their NLs so for them it doesn't matter, but new NLs who are struggling to wash and have low range already have trouble finding parties (due to how popular the NL class is due to their broken skills) so you'd only hurt them more. In my opinion washing in general is a bad mechanic that is neither nostalgic nor fun and if it was a new server I'd just double the HP of any ranged characters and remove washing altogether but it's a bit too late now. If you make washing harder now all you do is to make the old NLs monopolize the market and new NLs would never be able to compete with them. What NL needs is a slight nerf to their shifter/alchemist/damage and not an HP nerf.
Hp washing shouldn't be harder (Harder is better than easier though I agree) it just shouldn't be a thing. The problem is most people want the best for their class and getting over triple the hp your class is meant to have is a really big deal. So people will afk and accept leech which leaves other content more desolate and they think making easier hp gains will fix it. But more hp is a huge incentive so even if it's 5x as expensive and hard to wash as it is now, a lot of people just aren't going to pass on it. Not to mention most of us are already washed. agreed But because hp washing is such a thing to a huge degree the classes are ridiculous imbalanced. They can revert the hp washes (they won't ever do that), leave the classes how they are or nerf the best classes in a different way. The cats out of the bag, a class meant for speed and 1v1 damage can have ridiculous hp. It's like if Warrior's could increase the range of their main attack to TripleThrow's. I don't think this proposal to nerf Alchemist is full proof, but for the sake of balance I feel NL's should be nerfed in a way after being buffed (Hp wash). That still wouldn't help, it's a little too late to revert the washing.
That's the point. We want less NL. The NL that are already created are there to stay. We want to deter people (new players) from creating more NL, especially as their first main(s). If the formula were changed, those NL who have already washed would have their HP automatically adjusted to be an accurate representation of what the new formula is (so, say, if 1 wash added 10 HP before and it adds 5 HP now, the people who washed before would have their HP altered to reflect a 5 HP gain rather than the current 10). Your ideas don't reflect your opinion. They are giving people MORE incentive to play NL rather than deterring them. Giving ranged more HP is only going to make playing a NL easier, not harder. If you have an issue with the amount of people playing NL, the last thing you should be doing is removing one of the (only) obstacles involved with playing the class (HP washing), you should be seeking to further increase the difficulty. Those "nerfs" to alchemist/shifter aren't going to change anything in terms of class desirability-they aren't going to aid in reducing the amount of people playing NL, or being able to play a NL. They're just going to modify a few small perks, which yields no actual benefit since it doesn't change the rate at which people will create and play the class. It'll still be the strongest, and just as affordable as ever before - even more so after the new HP patch. So in the long run we'll see MORE NL even if we were to adjust alch/ss because the HP gain benefit far outweighs the downside of having reduced alch/ss benefits.
I don't think it's really fair though, why would someone who enter now have to pay double for wash just because they entered late? Shouldn't all the washed NLs get their hp cut too? Also what about other classes like BM or Corsair? Will their wash stay the same? If you want to make NL a lot less popular I'd suggest just to make SE give half or 2/3 the effects for party members (kinda like how the dual blade crit skill worked). This will reduce the damage of NLs by a lot (like 20% or so) and make the class on par with other attackers but could cause a lot of NLs to get mad and quit
Read my response through next time please. The second part clearly outlines "If the formula were changed, those NL who have already washed would have their HP automatically adjusted to be an accurate representation of what the new formula is (so, say, if 1 wash added 10 HP before and it adds 5 HP now, the people who washed before would have their HP altered to reflect a 5 HP gain rather than the current 10)." The new players wouldn't have to pay double, and the current NLs who washed would have their HP adjusted to reflect what it would be had they washed with the (new) formula. You'd then have to apply your concern regarding "fairness" and figure out a solution to reimburse everybody who invested in a NL before your weird skill/SE butchering idea were implemented (terrible idea, but just hypothetically speaking). Good luck figuring out a "fair" solution for that. You seem to have this misconception that classes are supposed to be on par with one another. Did you just make that up? Last I checked pre-BB gMS was never fair or balanced, and classes were not on par with one another. If you're looking for that, maybe this version isn't what you should be opting to play since it is the polar opposite of what you think the game should be like, and there are many other versions that fit better into your criteria.
I believe that no classes should be nerfed really. Since NL is relatively more powerful that the alternatives, buff the alternatives. All this nerf would do is make NL players feel bad. That's it. People who don't play NL would continue to feel the same. This seems even more silly when you consider that this skill has been around literally as long as the class has existed. Is this really the change that will nerf NLs to a "fair" level? The way I see it is like this: Verteran players will continue to feel the same and newer players will be hurt. Overall, I think this is a misguided and poorly considered change to NL.
I feel like nerfing Nightlords is definitely not necessary. This class has not received any buffs at New Source, unlike other classes that did. Infact, they have received a kind of an "unintentional" nerf by fixing a bug with Shadow Shifter, in Old Source Shadow Shifter's proc would ignore the skill's effect as well (i.e: When you proc'd Shadow Shifter it would block the Stun as well - Zakum/HT legs for example.) - I'm aware shadowers were affected by this as well but obviosuly much less as they have b-step to provide iframes. I do agree that the current meta favours Nightlords more than it did in old source, that's due to multiple reasons i'll not get into right now. However, Nightlords are not the best 1v1 dps in the game. I belive that the right way to deal with this is simply looking more into balancing another classes or the things around those classes, which is something that the Staff have been doing in the past and I'm certain they will do it again if necessary.
I'm kind of against buffing and nerfing classes left and right. I don't understand what is the purpose of removing/nerfing alchemist. I don't think it would make any difference other than make nightlord players upset and increasing the price of attack potions for everyone. Nightlords are one of the most played classes, so it is not that strange to me that the meta is 4nl+bm for horntail. I would love to bring back the times when we could bring 1-2 warriors in a 1 party horntail run and not having to wait for cancels when arms are too low, but I don't think that nerfing nl in anyway is going to achieve that.
All the above mentioned is all related to the problem of "hp washing" To solve this problem: 1. Revert the Hp (Hp Scale) 2. Disable the use of Ap resets 3. Only way to reset your Ap is through a NPC (paying a fee; the fee depends on how much Ap you want to reset) Compensate people with mesos (estimate how much mesos was needed to wash to that hp). ***However, this will inflat the market so idk how the compensation can be worked out. In terms of the formation of HT runs, I think people just need to be open minded and be inclusive ***Its the mindset and the lack of knowledge from people. (I know some people would be thinking only NLs can have fast+efficient runs but I strongly believe other formations can work out just as fine. For example 2drks+1bucc+1NL+1BM+1Bs). ***Its the matter of the willingness to try out different formations. Conclusion: "its the mindset of the people and the result of hp washing, dont really need to nerf alchemist" ***Sorry I kinda dragged off topic...
To nerf NL is equivalent to nerfing the game's DPS. To do so, nerfing triple throw achieves this but I am very very certain that majority of the players here will be against that idea. Nerfing skills that isn't directly related to damage will not achieve anything positive imo. The community will start a feedback war. Wih that said, I think nerfing alchemist is a decent move on its own. But looking at the bigger picture, it's not a step closer to improving anything.
Lol pretty sure no where in my comment I mentioned that MMORPGs didn't have re-balancing. That being said, we're in a v62/v83 server from 10 years back and that's what people expect when they join the server. Your tone in this comment and your other thread toward people with a different view is honestly shit. You asked for an opinion of someone that doesn't play NL and you got it. Stop being salty. If anything, any NL that plays seriously enough to fund himself to the bossing stage can easily afford attack pots and nerfing alchemist will only have the effect of driving up demand and the prices for all other classes.
Oh didn't see where you wrote it, why do you sound so angry lol? Anyway the HP adjusting is a terrible idea due to how washing works. An NL who worked hard to wash to about 10k will get his hp down to 7k and get stuck with a useless character that can't do ht. You could say the NL could spend money to wash but at this point it will be too late to get int as the NL would already be like lvl 160 or more (not to mention those at lvl 190-200) The SE thing I said is obviously not a good idea either, I'm just saying it hypothetically. If I made a new server I'd make sure to balance the classes properly by buffing weak classes (like paladin, bucc, marksman etc) and maybe nerfing NL a little bit but right now it's too late to make drastic changes here. And the classes being unbalanced in GMS doesn't mean they have to be unbalanced here. In GMS KSing, scamming, hacking and RWT were widespread (and RWT was even legal there, you could trade your NX for in game items at some point), do you want these things here too?
Alright alright calm down. I in no way attemted to offend you or any person in my comments. But i read back my comment and i still dont see that condescending tone that you mentioned. I asked peoples opinions to chalenge them, that’s the entire point of a debate. You challenge what i say, i challenge what you say, and hopefully we both learn something out of it. For example, someone before you talked about how its a bad idea to look at this nerf in the NL bubble, and to see that actually it will simplyhave bad impact on the ecomony, which i didn’t consider at first. But now that i look at what it will do (stoppers are limited resource, so stoppers will go up in price after nerf, basically the nerf cannot be contained in the NL alone) Views are ment to be challenged, thats not being salty, thats just the way of avoiding echo chambers and actually reaching to a conclusion. So again, i do not want to fight anyone, lets just have a normal debate
It's true that this nerf might increase stopper and apple prices due to increase in demand, i dont really want that either, poor us. However, i dont see how this will affect nls dps, only more mesos spent on attack potions to sustain pre-nerf damage, nls spending proportionately higher in post-nerf than what they were spending pre-nerf compared to other classes. Although i get where the other side is coming from, will still stand by my vote on nerfing this skill, perhaps not as much as i suggested but to a certain degree i.e. 130%. Mainly due to the reason that we nls have too many advantages when it comes to bossing (i feel bad for other classes sometimes, taking equal splits and more exp even though we spend wayy less on pots, although i suspect other classes dont bother using pots as much, but i always use at least 3-4 apples on hero in ht, and my nl never exceed 2, not including stoppers in zak/krex/bf/anego/toad, if you do daily bosses and grind field bosses, you will really feel the difference, nls save billions on pots on the road to lvl 200). This will in no way change the meta of full NL parties in bosses. What i hope is reducing nls advantages compared to other classes. Just a poke at u meta slaves. Either buff the others, or nerf this, both are non-nostalgic balances and people who support class buffs should have no reason to reject the idea of class nerfs. Also, laughing at the fact that like some weird Murphy's Law, it's true that every feedback thread will somehow degrade to a discussion about how hp washing is the real problem. Anyway, go on
I don't understand what's so bad about nerfing alchemist. You're just gonna use more stoppers and apples, LIKE WHAT THE REST OF BM SAIR HERO DRK -insert more attacker class- ARE DOING, with the nerf. It's not like you gonna be complete trash tier if alchemist gets a nerf... Best mobility? ✓ Best avoid? ✓ Skill that negate damage? ✓ Has a way to get cheaper HP washing that no other class has? ✓
"This will in no way change the meta of full NL parties in bosses." How NL became the meta? 1. Ignorant of people (not willing to try other formations and lack of knowledge of different classes) 2. Mindset of people (not welcoming other classes because they think they are slow) 3. Hp washed NLs which benefited them alot 4. NLs are main dps back in GMS (royals is 90% bossing based rather than grinding compared to GMS) 5. Not much limitations but does high damage (Hp is solve by hp washing; BM is always in party) I believe to solve this problem... 1. once agian revert the hp (hp scale) and disable ap resets (only paying a fee or doing quest from a npc can reset Aps) 2. Buff other classes 3. somehow add in stronger bosses that is inclusive of other classes 4. the mindset of people needs to change
You're absolutely right, however this thread has nothing to do with fixing the game meta: be it hp washing or inclusiveness of other classes. I am not suggesting that nerfing this skill will solve the issue that everyone is thinking about. Right now, i'm just questioning the need to give NLs such a big advantage in terms of attack potion duration.
Nl is only good at bossing, other classes warriors for example are great at bosses with multiple target as well as really good at grinding while bm and mm have summons so they can afk farm. Every class has its own pros and cons personally i think it would be a really shitty game if all classes were just the same. I don't see how changing alchemist can bring any positive change at all. Slightly nerfing the mesos income of a bossing nightlord isn't a good enough reason, I don't even think that nightlords are extraordinarily good at making mesos in the first place. Nightlords can spend slightly less on each boss run than most other classes however I don't see how this has a negative impact on the server as a whole or the players. If you feel bad for spending less than some other class at a boss and then taking the same amount of split then you can easily solve your problem by spending more or taking less.
