In Discussion Content Rose Garden Nerf/Adjustments

Could also make bees spawn at player's location, that way active play is incentivized. Personally I find myself paying much more attention after I get one of those spawns and I instantly catch them.

 

mob density after server check 27/04 seems to be lower (?)

 

tips, put net at hotkey to spam at bees

 

3 runs on bucc lv184 (ok dps), room2:
gizer + 1 apple in the end: ~22 min bonus -> 12 bees
gizer + 1 apple in the end: ~22 min bonus -> 16 bees
4 apples: 28 min bonus -> 12 bees (extremely unlucky RNG in first 2 stages so they took way longer, extremely unlucky RNG in bon + no bee spawning despite text twice ??)

Suggestions (some of them overlap with others above or are actually the same):
- remove mage-specific nerfes, they are bad and straight up unfair and they even do not solve the problem, they just shifted it to strong melee attackers now.
- cap bees per run to 30 bees. As you can see the problem is not mages, now attackers report similar numbers. Adjust max bee number if too low / high.*
- cap to 1 run per IP per day, maybe 3 runs if you insist on rich players getting richer.
- fixed bonus time. reduce the proneness to failure due to RNG.
- allow mount looting.
- enable npc chat key.
- prevent bees from running away / going to extremely unfortunate places OR in that case show bees on the minimap OR spawn bees near the players. Reduce failure due to RNG.
- prolong bee life OR make them not disappear but instead count as 1-2 monster spawns instead. Each player can plan their farming schedule way better like that.
- do not hand out pure meso, instead grant some form of untradeable or at least less dynamic profit.

Spoiler: *use good ol' logistic model in case you do not want to cap, read this:

Capping the max bee amount is actually super fair if you think about it. Any way to nerf this content has the same goal anyway, but here we simply cap it no matter the job and level. This adds a lot of positive aspects, such as an unbiased max amount of meso per player per day and no class bias, while strong/efficient players do not have to apple and are done faster with their bon in case they reach 30 and still enabling a good experience to everyone - while not destroying server economy!
You need to cap the max amount per player - nerfing will have the same goal btw so why not just do it fair? If you got a transparent cap, it is much less frustrating than having specific class nerfs and RNG.

If you do not want to cap, please consider this:
Use a logistic model that decreases bee value per bee spawned. In case it cannot be done per individual bee, drop tiers of bee dust, like 10 bees = 5m each, 20 bees = 1m each, 30 bees = 100k meso each etc etc. Like that you can still have no cap but dont have such a bad impact of these tons of bees.

 

i think its worth noting here that @lxlx is probably the strongest dark knight on the server and his/her numbers shouldnt be seen as the average numbers dark knights get, being able to two tap these mobs requires 14-15k range even with apple i'd imagine.

 

What? You and everyone else doesn't have a perfect +20 Auf helm on their warrior like awlz that @Kung is assuming?

 

average 179 hero, 2 runs:
14 min stage / 26 min bon (stoppers)
12 min stage / 28 min bon (apple)


some suggestions:

mages were nerfed hard but imo the overall income is actually balanced (hold the flame - more on this point below)
mages were getting 35-45 powders in 30 mins bon. Now they are getting 17 powders in 20 mins. The extreme meso/hr is now a lot more reasonable due to being capped, although it is still very high (255m/hr bon).

attackers were greatly buffed even though the pre-nerf income was already too high
attackers can now clear boss in half the time (saved 7-8 mins) while their bon times were not really changed with potential now for more. Attackers were getting 25-33+ powders in 30 mins bon (250-330+ m/hr bon).

the boss can still be balanced better to level the playing field for attacker/mage while keeping it competitive/fun
imo it's a lot more interesting/fun when funding plays a large role in results especially for bossing and I believe the devs have the same opinion.
funded mages and funded attackers should clear the stages/boss in 10 mins
average funded mages/attackers should clear the stages/boss in 15 mins
attackers are in a good position here but what we currently have is funded mages clearing in 20 mins. I don't have the exact details but if the levels can be more closely aligned with above it would make mages feel a lot better.

the bonus time should be fixed to 15 or 20 mins for many reasons
- the DPS check is fun and desirable but should only be limited to the boss and not further penalize the bonus time - this helps low funded players who are dealing with <20 mins bon
- the extremely high meso/hr should be capped for both mages/attackers - mages were nerfed down to a reasonable level and attackers should be balanced to the same
- nobody wants to run this for 30 mins per day (times X mules) - keeping it short and sweet allows players to enjoy the content while not getting burnt out. Who really looks forward to grinding the same thing everyday all by themselves? I think people much rather get this solo content out of the way ASAP and see other players.
- capping the meso/hr also makes it less of a burden to have to run everyday. Players would feel much better if they wanted to skip out a day of 100m vs missing out on 200m+. I think less pressure to run things = more enjoyment for most people.

boss total reward should be tweaked further (lowered)
if we make the stages/boss take 10 mins for funded players - the consistent rewards should be lowered to <40m total value (correct me if I'm wrong but it is like 60-70 rn). This would keep meso/hr at <240m/hr to prevent players from making too much if skipping bon on all their characters.

 

I think posting your clear times with what attack pots is helpful but at the same time without knowing your range with mw20/general gears, there’s not enough context.

What do the other people here think? I’m sure JackHarrie or Awlz clears faster than me on stopper even if I apple.

 

On my Bucc, in the updated RG, a gizer run on avarage goes like this:
Stage 1: 5 mins
Stage 2: 5 mins
Stage 3: 7~8 mins
therefore, remaining bonus: 22 mins [deduct 1 min for walking lol]

This might be a "me" issue, but when I saw this content, I thought it was the answer to a feedback post made multiple times already regarding the lack of endgame solo grind (for example, this one). In its initial form, it provided mobs that are worth the time to kill [admittiedly the mob exp was a bit overtuned, even for that application], meaning you can get over an hour of grind against mobs in a solo content, while also giving yourself a fair chance at a good ring. So when I saw the nerfs directed heavily against this content's viability as a solo exp grind, I was just baffled.

From your post, it seems like I got the wrong idea about what this content was made for, so RG was supposed to be a meso generation for end game players that don't want to leech? if that's all this is, then well, that's a shame. RG definitly had the potential to be that endgame exp solo grind, but after the exp nerf and 40 mins time limit, the exp dropped to barely above doing oblivion 4 grind, which by all means, is not a good sign.

I'm personally just really disappointed with how this entire content was handled, but considering that the only feedback that'll be relevant right now would be of those that use this content for meso generation means that my feedback is void to begin with.

 

The patch has successfully reduced the amount of players participating in Rose Garden. The logic of the adjustments were understood as @Zancks has explained. However, mages have been severely impacted by the double adjustment on the boss and ultimate. Mages take around the same time for stage 1 and 2 in comparison to attackers but the boss itself takes way too long to clear which is unreasonable. The content had good intention of incorporating mages in particular archmage with the glimpse of defeating a boss but now it is demotivating to even fund a mage. I believe mages specifically archmages deserve a higher level content where they can excel in. I.e more maps dedicated to them. I would love to see videos of mages (if there are any) to show current farming methods at the bonus stage. As for attackers, I think it is in a good spot because players are rewarded based on their progression.

 

https://royals.ms/forum/threads/archmage.155200

https://royals.ms/forum/threads/buff-chain-lightning-paralyze.150852/

https://royals.ms/forum/threads/make-archmages-viable-in-bossing.157099/

There was feedback to improve archmages endgame content but the conclusion had been to confine archmages to their traditional role.

Mages have always been confined to normal mobbing/farming role. There is no reason why they deserve better higher level content. This has also been consistent with LHC nerfing of ultimates (drop rate of totems). Other than bishops always being relevant for their HS, shield and ress, archmages will maintain their legacy role.

I am in favour of making it viable for players to main an archmage and enjoy all content, but that's not what the community wants or what others want.

 

At this point I really don't understand why the content has to be the way it is.
Staff try to adjust it and balance it instead of entirely changing it.
Rose Garden was introduced as very simple (gameplay wise) content that gave 200-250m/h raw meso, totems equivalent to 1h of LHC, 1-6k nx, chance for cs, EXP nearly as good as LHC and sometimes a best-in-slot ring.
I'm not sure why it was released like this to be fair, but when were talking about balancing - this content needs to have a different place in the game.
What I mean by that is - the conversation shouldn't be about how to balance what basically is a farming content, but it should be changed to be a short daily quest (similar to pap/ellin bosses).
Make it just a quick 10 mins quest where you collect keys, collect souls and then kill a boss that drops a good amount of totems, NX, gizers/pots and a good chance for ring/earring, you can also add a small chance for a slightly more expensive item.
The whole bonus idea is just bad in my opinion and the fact that it gives raw meso is going to have bad effects in the long term - people are mostly happy about it because it suddenly introduced an easy way to make multimage farm kind of meso without much effort.
If I entirely ditched my hexa farm in favor of this, and this patch made it even better for me - something is seriously wrong.
My melees aren't strong at all, I'm just appling and I get more bonus time than before everytime.

Please consider changing the purpose of this content, cause I think that if you take my suggestion it will still be popular - as it will basically be an improved pap/ellin kind of situation and players will just add it to their daily rotation.

 

Good point. It however does not matter if there is only very few people being that strong. You still need to cap the raw meso output of this content - which these nerfs are trying to do anyway, but they simply make it unfair now. That is why I suggest to set a transparent max limit (or use a logisitic value model) if you will not change it from meso to something better like for instance Donnie and others suggested multiple times.

 

If Staff takes your suggestion seriously, then I think the boss should also drop Burning Energy as that was one of the reasons they had introduced this content and supports VL attackers (unless people should just go back to Golem parties).

Personally speaking, I don't think Staff should introduce anymore high exp content because people are already leveling at a fast pace with the introduction of LHC and its grinding parties. I think people are leveling too fast as before my guildies had to do Toad, Krex, HT, Cwk, and etc for exp and now they just do Shao+LHC (and maybe HT if they feel like it) for massive exp gains.

 

I think it has been said already, but I will add again that Rose Garden should give an HP/MP reward for each completion, less than Ruel's but still give something. 20HP for each clear seems fair to me. Either introduce an etc exchange with HP rewards or just straight HP on daily quest completion. I would rather Rose Garden be a proper segue to running VL instead of a Multi-client meso farm.

*side-bar convo* when the fuck is the Tokens of Teamwork rewards and added methods of acquiring getting revamped along with new things being added? (nx, hp/mp, pots, untradeables) I thought that was a thing happening very soon.

In conclusion, fuck washing let me play the game for HP gains. Please.

also +1 on what @Donn1e said. Fuckin spot on.

 

5/3/24

30 min bonus run, first map, no burning energy, lowest hp mobs, bowmaster mw20 echo appo-ed
nice try defending your shadow nerf after the nerf

im just kidding today was an extremely unlucky and bad rng run, past few days i get 27-30 bees with 3 appos. Made it less taxing now that boss takes 5-6minutes. Thank you. Back to apqing

 

You can use the regular etc drops to track how unlucky you get (assuming you pick them all up) - for every 20 etc you should get 1 bee

 

I tried to but I realise it’s not very accurate since my phoenix does the finishing blow quit a fair bit and my pets don’t loot the etcs from those kills. I always see the floor with lots of etcs I don’t bother looting xD

not too bothered about the bees now that the boss isn’t a pain for me. Just wanted to be decent at something either bossing or farming ngl

 

Ah right summon kills. That and the fact that I don't loot a platform on bishop make it harder for me to track there, but pally is very accurate.

Even with what I see in your inventory you got unlucky though.

 

there should be a platform like right here so i stop falling to the bottom of the tower